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What’s the right play with the new puppets?

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by SpankmyMetroid, May 4, 2021.

?

How do you handle puppets now?

  1. Leave them alone

    4 vote(s)
    15.4%
  2. Annex (when?)

    12 vote(s)
    46.2%
  3. Raze and resettle

    9 vote(s)
    34.6%
  4. Cannibalize tiles (build cities around it and swap good tiles to the nonpuppet)

    3 vote(s)
    11.5%
  5. Other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. SpankmyMetroid

    SpankmyMetroid Warlord

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    Essentially (unless you’re rome capturing a late game city) any puppets that are made now will only make defensive buildings, then processes, which combined with the penalty to puppets, make them little better than outposts to heal your units. Any good terrain around the puppet is wasted. I do like the change as it encourages more extreme and game altering choices (raze or annex) rather than just puppeting everything you conquer and leaving it at that, though I think it’d be neat if there was a social policy (or maybe a world wonder) that restored how puppets used to behave.

    My personal choice (with my greedy playstyle) in my current game would be to hold on to early conquest cities as puppets until pioneers, then raze and resettle, mainly so the space is “claimed” and no one else can sneak a settler in. That’s going to be a huge cost in hammers/gold, though.
     
    glider1 likes this.
  2. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond King

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    Just for clarification, the 80% puppet penalty does not apply to processes.
     
    Melchizedek likes this.
  3. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    They still only work gold process most of the time (barely covering maintenance cost), and the terrain is basically wasted without building boosts. Not to mention CS/conscription units won't have any XP if they spawn in puppets.
     
  4. General_Drax

    General_Drax Warlord

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    I observed that defensive buildings are racks/castle/arsenal/strategic defense. No Harbor no mine field.

    On a domination game I have no use for a resettling it's either raze or puppet/cannibalize tiles to the annexed ones. All enemy cities around their capital will be puppetted and asserved since I could not raze the capital itself.
     
  5. Thibix Magnus

    Thibix Magnus Warlord

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    The right play is Venice play :D
     
  6. Bryan317

    Bryan317 Prince

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    Idk I just annex everything once I research courthouses lol. I happen to be playing as Rome (it's been awhile) and it's a no brainer to annex with them. (Retain all buildings) But as any civ, I do this. IMO puppets are only good if you're going for a cultural victory. Other than that, even though you take those initial -5% research and policy, give it enough time they will eventually produce more than an extra 5% towards these categories to your empire.

    I would only puppet when I'm basically on the Landslide for the win.
     
    jekke likes this.
  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    If I’m doing industrial wars I just puppet unless it’s a capital. I mean realistically that city with its nerfed yields is never going to be a contributor, even if it does keep building buildings.

    classical or earlier i would raze and resettle.

    medieval and Renaissance is the tricky part for me, I’m still undecided as to the best path. Probably puppet until pioneers than raze and resettle
     
  8. stii

    stii King

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    I generally annexed any early city anyway. Puppets produced pretty much nothing, so producing slightly less nothing now doesn't seem like a huge change.
     
  9. looorg

    looorg Warlord

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    If the city is very small and terribad and I don't need it as some kind of healing zone I burn it to the ground If I need a healing zone it's a puppet until it's no longer needed and then burned to the ground. If it's a city I can't burn to the ground (city state or capital), or it's actually in a good spot with good stuff in it, then it's usually puppet until the war is over and the resistance is broken and then annexation. If I burn and resettle I usually try and hold the burn until the new settler (etc) has arrived on location.
     
  10. Melchizedek

    Melchizedek Prince

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    I'm not so sure about this. The breakeven point isn't 5% of yields / turn, it's 5% of total yields over all turns since your annexed the city. The annexed city has to get up to 5% of per turn yields just to stop being a per turn additional loss, and then generate enough afterwards to make up for the turns before it stopped being a per turn loss. Imagine you have 20 cities. Then your average city only has 5% of yields. So I think your general statement that annexed cities will eventually produce a net gain in culture and science cannot be correct.
     
  11. Bryan317

    Bryan317 Prince

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    Hmm ok.. definitely got to break out a calculator to be sure. I see what you're saying about having to make up for the 5% net loss at the beginning... But you have to take into consideration how much culture and science is being gained by the buildings you're acquiring. This is literally an exercise in statistics or something lol
     
  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So 5% is somewhat of a misnomer, because the original base requirements (before you build any cities) change by 5%. But that's not the same as the effective increase from one city to another. Here is the actual chart

    City Founded | Effective Yield Increase
    2 4.55%
    3 4.35%
    4 4.17%
    5 4.00%
    6 3.85%
    7 3.70%
    8 3.57%
    9 3.45%
    10 3.33%
    11 3.23%
    12 3.13%
    13 3.03%
    14 2.94%
    15 2.86%

    So what this is saying is.... if I go from 9 cities to 10, the 10th city needs to make up 3.33% yields in order to break even.
     
    glider1 and bonniepbilly like this.
  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Also if its useful for people, take a look at this thread: Pioneer Expansion Profitable? - A Real Example | CivFanatics Forums

    Though I used a pioneer, you could consider the results similar to annexing a city around that same time period (thought annexing a puppet is going to be a bit worse, as you have nothing but defensive buildings built). I did a very very detailed look at how that city contributes to the civ as a whole, so it can help inform you on whether you think annexing a puppet at this point in the game is reasonable.

    For a quick summary of that thread: My pioneer 10th city in that game (founded on Turn 223) ultimately increased my Culture + Science yields (after taking into account the increased cost from the extra city, aka I already took care of that "5% stuff") by 3.2%.
     
  14. Bryan317

    Bryan317 Prince

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    Awesome stuff. Thanks for breaking that down. Honestly on almost every aspect of this game there are pros and cons and certain situations. I'll admit I'm sort of blindly saying how great annexing is when my end goal is domination anyways. Of course adding another city made me churn out even more to the war machine.

    On a side note, I simply don't use pioneers. They take too long to build and I'm usually taking cities by force by then. I've usually tried to send out my last settler by the time it's unlocked.
     
  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Pioneers got a big cost reduction in one of the recent versions, they are very reasonable to build now (I can often build them in 2 turns in certain cities). Not saying the city they make is useful to you, but I would say the cost is no longer a factor in whether the city is worth getting or not.
     
    Bryan317 likes this.
  16. Fluffball

    Fluffball Prince

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    I have never been completely certain of the exact maths but from these figures the bonus is additive not cumulative?
    This would give us a change of
    empire yield percentage change = (1- (100+ (previous number of cities x 5) /100+ (number of cities you will have x 5) ) )

    And to work out the yield increase you will need you will have for the city to be of benefit
    city yield increase needed = ( current empire yield x (1 + percentage change) ) - current empire yield
     
  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Yes it’s additive. So if a tech costs 100 at base it goes to 105, 110, 115, etc
     
  18. tommytoxen

    tommytoxen Warlord

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    i honestly don't even see the point in puppets anymore. changes to puppets have literally just changed my playstyle from
    puppet -> develop -> give back to owner/bordering ally at a later date or eventually annex (if it has resources/luxuries i need)
    to
    >raze
    and if there's luxuries/resources i really want there i'll just ship a settler over and resettle the land myself.

    because by the time i'm taking cities in war the colonists/pioneers already settle with the basic military buildings anyway.

    in my games at least i literally fail to see any reason to puppet at all. there's no advantage whatsoever. so its just effectively removed puppeting.
    if anything the changes are a disadvantage to AI, as they like to puppet, and while they're stuck just building defensive building/processes i can build whatever i fancy where-ever i fancy. all my lovely culture and science buildings :p

    edit:
    i play on marathon that could influence these decisions btw. i like to always make sure i have 1-2 colonists/pioneers 'spare' just incase. so often it's actually quicker to simply raze & re-settle than it is to puppet and wait the 50-100 turns or so for a puppet to build a frigging useless armoury for no reason at all as i can't use the XP from it anyway.

    so perhaps this is more of a speed balance issue.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
    Bryan317 likes this.
  19. Fluffball

    Fluffball Prince

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    I think blanket automatically razing captured cities is probably a bit extreme. In the early game this is sometimes an obvious option when the population is low and you inherit no buildings but as you get more toward the mid and especially late game where you gain 10+ pop and a vast amount of buildings that is vastly superior to colonising new cities even with reduced pioneer costs.

    Personally the new changes just seem to reinforce my automatically annexing cities which i have been doing for a long time with the current happiness system where happiness only counts up to the population of un-puppeted cities which means you can huge amounts of excess happiness yet it isn't counted as you don't have the un-puppeted population to register it.
    The changing point for me was a warmonger game where i was puppeting most cities in the mid/late game and got into crippling uphappiness and nothing i did seemed to make a difference until i realised that while i had over 700 happiness and around 600 population, around 400 of them were in puppet cities which meant i had only around 200 happiness from the un-puppeted population but over 300 unhappiness.
    I annexed a load of puppets and my happiness was fine so from then on (apart froma few exceptional circumstances) i always annex cities.

    Puppets haven't been really useful since the current happiness system was implemented as their main use was reducing the unhapiness hit from new cities at the cost of reduced resource income. Now they just have reduced resource income and are a happiness sink and the current beta changes makes that trade off seem even worse.

    Vassals seem to fill the role of puppets and a much better at the role.
     
    tommytoxen likes this.
  20. Bryan317

    Bryan317 Prince

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    I've been asking myself that question as I've annexed every city this game. I am playing as Rome and it's nice to even gain a courthouse from a reconquered city. I would say in most cases even if there was a -5% over all reduction. I was actually still adding more to the total pool. Public works can solve most happiness problems. It's hard to say without doing a domination game and forcing myself to puppet more. Would I have been well ahead on Technology and Policies than where I am now? It's hard to compare the two because all of the choices in between can vary differently. If you annex you were able to choose what it built. That could have been useful to you in many ways. Or perhaps all the turns I wasted building public works to correct my happiness could have been used in a different direction...

    Ugh and the debate continues lol
     
    tommytoxen likes this.

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