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What about ... the ideas in terms of money?

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by 3tag, Jan 3, 2020.

  1. 3tag

    3tag Chieftain

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    Hello everyone,

    does anybody know if there are any ideas out there in the forum about modifying the money/gold system?
    Maybe already collected in one place ...

    if not, I would like to start with this thread.


    >> one thing strange is ... that the natives have thousends of moneyunits (maybe we can call them CrownCoins CC) in their pockets, which are the same kind you get from your king, when leaving the homelands.

    >> maybe it is an idea to make a second money with the silver and gold you once mine in the colonies, which might reflect the historical "greenbacks" that where produced by the colonies themself and made them independent from the moneysupply of the king in europe.

    >> maybe it could be also quite immersive, if you have to load money on the ships for trading, if you like to buy something which can be paid with this. (by the way the solution in "Dawn of a New Era" for trading with natives is brilliant)
     
  2. Commander Bello

    Commander Bello Say No 2 Net Validations

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    I think this is just to make things easier. The "gold" you are paying for goods in a native settlement is just a placeholder for the glass perls, metal pans, knifes and mirrors you would be trading with them in real life.
     
  3. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    The money system is fine as it is. It's a simple concept for players, programmers and AI. I would argue that natives accumulating huge fortunes is an issue, but it's more kind of an AI issue or rather: what should the natives spend the money on? If you keep buying stuff from the natives, they will end up with a whole lot of money and since they don't buy units from Europe they don't have a money sink like the European players. Sure the player can sell stuff to the natives, but the game should be sensible even if no player does that.

    If somebody has a good idea on how to handle "native economy", then do tell.
     
  4. Commander Bello

    Commander Bello Say No 2 Net Validations

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    Sorry, I am again coming with an example from RaR (and I promise, I will play a bit more of WTP just to do you justice).

    In RaR, the natives sometimes would wander in your city and give you a present or sell you items.
    Why not making them buy something as well?
    They could check for manufactured items present andask to buy a small amount of them. Especially they would be asking for tools and weapons of course, which likely you wouldn't want to sell. But who knows?
    Else they could just be asking for their villages' preferred items.
    It would be mandatory though to provide the information about amount of those items present, and the price you would instead achieve in Europe.
     
  5. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    I abslutely agree. :thumbsup:

    Actually I had purposely implemented that (in RaR when implementing Bargaining) so that Natives would have enough money to buy goods when Trading (or Bargaining) with them.

    Before that change, Natives would run out of money extremely fast (after about 2 times trading / bargaining) and you could not sell them anything anymore.
    They simply would not get enough money back from the low value goods they sold you.

    Thus the Trading / Bargaining feature was very disappointing for most players since it became almost useless in mid- to late-game.

    Well, currently they mainly serve as an additional income source for Humans.
    They mainly spend their money on the stuff you sell them. But again, without that the Trading / Bargaining becomes useless.

    While I agree that Trading / Bargaining with Natives is overpowered since it lets you get money quite easily, it is still a lot of fun for many casual players.
    (And no player is force to use the feature Trading / Bargaining if he does not like it because it is so overpowered.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  6. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Deity

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    Can they use it for diplomacy? I mean pay you to make peace with them or attack an other native civ.
     
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  7. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Well, I think you could demand the money from them in the "Make Peace"-Trade deal. So probably yes.
    I am not sure however that they would acutally proactively offer that.
     
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  8. 3tag

    3tag Chieftain

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    In my opinion there should be a better feeling of the circumstance that the kings in europe tried to accumulate as much wealth as possible in their disposal.

    Does anyone have the same feeling and / or any idea to create that feeling for the player?
     
  9. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Sorry, I simply do not understand what you are suggesting or asking for. :dunno:
    What is the problem with "the cirumcstances that the kings tried to accumulate as much wealth as possible"?

    Those greedy kings of course invested a lot of it in their countries' army/navy and their expensive life styles.
    (The Tax Requests and Gold Requests also give some flavour texts.)

    Considering the game logic all wealth transitions (e.g. Gold Requests or incomve from Taxes when trading in Europe) to your King will (also) be considered for increasing his REF that he used in WOI against you.
    Otherwise there is simply no game mechanic in the game that would make sense for the King to use its money.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
  10. 3tag

    3tag Chieftain

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    idea: of manual pricing on domestic markets ...

    > which could influence happyness for example
     
  11. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Please explain a bit more.

    I currently cannot yet figure out what you like to suggest. :dunno:
    How is this idea related to the money system?

    Something like "Happiness" also does not yet exist in WTP.
    (It would be a completely own concept to discuss.)

    By the way:

    Domestic Market influences are part of the "City Needs" concept I recently suggested.
    (It is "kind of a Happiness" / "Satisfaction" system but not working with a Yield "Happiness" but more like a "mini quest system".)
     
  12. cammcken

    cammcken Warlord

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    Currently, natives can only trade gold when the trade screen is opened by a transport unit in a native settlement. The normal diplomacy screen — clicking on the leader name — won't allow it.
     
  13. Krohon

    Krohon Chieftain

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    Spanish colonies used to take the metal stuff from natives and smelt it on ingots, called bullion. The bullion (gold, silver, copper) was the main export of the Spanish colonies for centuries.

    Since the natives didn't have, nor wanted, European coins, I suggest to use "Luxury Goods" to pay for native stuff, and use the now useless "Trade Goods" as the payment the natives give to the player.

    Eventually, adding a smelter (it is missing on the metal chain) might allow the player to sell proper bullion to Europe. But selling raw "Trade Goods" in place of bullion should be OK too.
     
  14. 3tag

    3tag Chieftain

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    @ raystuttgart ... I wish I could explain things more clear ... but mostly there is only a vague feeling for an idea that might give the game a benefit.
     
  15. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    You kind of confuse me. "Trade Goods" are not useless at all! :)
    They are incredibly usefull for selling to the Natives and get you a really good profit.
    They are cheap in Europe and sell high price to Natives (at least early in the game).
    That is also exactly how they were used in Original Colonization of 1994.

    "Luxury Goods" is just the other side of the game and also historically correct.
    Although they are relatively expensive in Europe, they still give you reasonable profits on the Domestic Market in your Colonies.
    They are basically intended to have max efficiency for sailing back and forth to Europe and being able to trade in Europe and in your Colonies.

    -----

    General Remark:

    I still don't understand what is wrong with the "money system" in general considering game play. :dunno:
    I am personally really not in favour of changing well working system if these 2 are both true:
    • It is incredbile amount of effort and has huge risks of bugs
    • It does not add any value (e.g. fun or challenge or reduction of tediousness) to gameplay
    Please guys, let us not start to start discussing "changing for the purpose of changing itself". :thumbsup:
    There need to be reasons to make a change, feature or overhaul valuable to convince somebody to invest the effort.

    We really try hard to listen to community, undertand and consider. :)
    But please give us something to work with and explain what you want to achieve and why.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
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  16. lyciummusic

    lyciummusic Chieftain

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    I also like the money system as it is. However AI needs some boost as it cannot manage production as a human player does. At the time preparing WOI in my latest game, I spent 2M+ buying colonists/troops/equipment. Was earning 20k a turn from domestically only. Even the richest AI was broke as they always are.
     
  17. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    We know that and are working on it. ;)
    (It is currently the main focus of devolution while the rest of us fix small issues and implement improvements.)

    AI coding however is not as simple as many seem to think.
    It is infact one of the most difficult aspects im programming / modding.

    You think you improved one part of AI by shifting AI focus stronger on one important aspect.
    But by this you weakened its other focusses and suddenly AI is worse than before ...

    It is very difficult to find the right balance of focusses of AI or forsee all possible game situations AI might be in.
    Also some AI logic might need to be so complicated that it could serioulsy affect performance.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
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  18. lyciummusic

    lyciummusic Chieftain

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    Wouldn't a simpler solution also work? Like increasing prices for AI or giving them a steady income, a stipend?
     
  19. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Sure, "giving AI more money" or "other free stuff" would help it in general.
    (That is basically what Game Difficulties do in most games.)

    But:
    • It still does not mean it is making good decisions how to use it.
    • Players will notice heavily that AI has lots of unexplainable money and complain about AI cheats.
    • It will destroy immersion anyways if AI will not use certain features appropriately (or at all).
    Every time I suggested to make feature rules for AI a bit easier recently - some community members hated it.
    And that is even way less cheating than just giving AI lots of free money and in most cases players would not even know if we would not openly tell it.

    A) We need to keep working on AI improvements and try to teach it to use features properly.
    B) We need to make sure to add as little negative effects as possible considering AI for new features.
    C) Until AI can handle specific features properly we might also need to give it "easier rules" - in ways that players will not notice ingame.
    D) Just dumping lots of money on AI is not the solution because it will destroy immersion.

    Let us however not hijack feature / suggestion threads with general AI discussions so often. :thumbsup:
    And I know I did it myself again. :blush:
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  20. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I also like the current money system. It would be fun though if your success made other nations jealous of your king and resulted in negative modifiers. A counter of how much you're trading (loosely associated with how much your king is profiting)
     

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