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What about ... the ideas in terms of money?

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by 3tag, Jan 3, 2020.

  1. Krohon

    Krohon Chieftain

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    Well, no need to be confused since I don't say that!

    I propose to use "Luxury Goods" to sell to natives, instead of "Trade Goods". The natives will pay the player with "Trade Goods" instead of gold. And then the player will be able to sell the "Trade Goods" for gold. Of course the price of the "Trade Goods" should be corrected, they should start about the same as gold early game, go down as silver later on, and eventually go less valuable than "Luxury Goods", making it unprofitable to do this kind of commerce, about middle game.

    This will be much more likely to the real, historical commerce. I believe it will feel better too, removing the question of how the natives got real money.

    It may be implemented on top of the actual pure money transactions, giving the player the choice of using either way to trade with natives. Just make it more profitable so people can use it despite the extra work involved (sending ships or wagons to native settlements) and extra risks (losing the cargo).
     
  2. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Prince Supporter

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    I find your use of words confusing. "Luxury Goods" are not at all what was historically sold to the natives. Luxury goods would be priceless ivory chessboards, venetian glass, crystal chandeliers etc., produced in Europe, that only a somewhat decadent nobility or wealthy citizenry would find interest in, but that would be near useless for nomadic or semi-nomadic tribes.

    Trade Goods on the other hand is the usual term for goods that had a miniscule price in Europe (e.g. glass pearls, cheap mirrors, colourful strips of cloth) that the Natives did not know before and gladly traded in for a good while until their needs were satisfied.Of course despite the low cost in Europe they should still be able to be sold to the Natives at high profits for a while until they start demanding other goods, as they see the european colonists use them.

    Trading with the Natives and being paid by them in gold coins or other currency would be and should be the exception. The majority of trade for most of the games timeframe was barter (which by the way is simulated in a very nice way in DoaNE). For example the sale of Staten Island to the Dutch did cost them:
    “10 boxes of shirts, 10 ells of red cloth, 30 pounds of powder, 30 pairs of socks, 2 pieces of duffel, some awls, 10 muskets, 30 kettles, 25 adzes, 10 bars of lead, 50 axes and some knives.”"
     
  3. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Exactly. :thumbsup:
    Exactly. :thumbsup:

    That is why I was so confused as well. :)

    That is basically what "Trade Goods" are supposed to be. :)
    The system just needed to be simplified for a computer game.

    Also, it is really complicated to hack into the Diplo-Trade-Screen.
    I had huge problems implementing the current "Bartering with Natives Feature" already.
    (Which I personally really like in my Single-Player games - but know that it causes OOS in Multi-Player if a Player uses it.)

    And I don't like to replace that nice DLL-Diplo-Trade-Screen with some "not really pretty looking" Python Screen for Trading with Natives.
    So basically I will not work on changing the Trading System for Natives - it is way too much effort for way too little benefit for me.
     
  4. 3tag

    3tag Chieftain

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    :agree: really charming solution
     
  5. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Prince Supporter

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    While no change to the look of the Diplo-Trading Screen, would it perhaps be possible to change one of these points?

    In my current game I bartered with the Carib about 300 units of Trade Goods. In the Score list of the game it is visible to the player that the Carib had say 8006 gold.
    So I bartered and bartered until I got the price to 8000 gold and accidentally bartered again as I misclicked and botched the deal because the Carib were upset with my bartering...
    Would it be possible that - if the negotiated price has reached the maximum of gold available - the barter option is not shown / greyed out / inactive so that the player can’t accidentally continue to barter, despite knowing that the other side has nothing to add to the offer?

    Or, if the maximum amount of gold is reached, would it be possible for the Natives to add goods of their own production to the deal?
     
  6. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Maybe. :dunno:

    This could probably be checked by the Python logic displaying the dialogue choices.
    (But where do we draw the line - since the added value is % based with a random value?)

    Probably not. :dunno:

    The barter assets added are too deep in the Diplo-Dialogue in the exe.
    As I said, I was having already lots of problems to hack into the DLL-Diplo-Dialogue like it currently works with Bartering.

    Otherwise it is just a matter of paying a little bit of attention. :dunno:

    If you barter harder than the Natives can or want to go, then it is basically your choice.
    (Theoretically it would even be possible that you increase the price from 8000 to 8006 - if that is wort the bartering risk to you.)

    I do not really consider it a bug to be honest.

    Also, how could you successfully barter up to 8000 gold ??? :confused:
    That should usually not be possible with the XML settings (bartering success chances and gold amount increases) we have for bartering.

    If you successfully barter 2 or 3 times you are already lucky.
    I hardly ever barter more often than twice because I am usually already happy then I do not want to anger the Natives needlessly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2020
    Atlas627 likes this.
  7. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Prince Supporter

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    Well I started with 3 X 100 trade goods on the ship. From the initial offer I think I bartered 4 times to get there. Is bartering value influenced by difficulty, mapsize or gamespeed (Conquistador/gigantic/Marathon)?
     
  8. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    The gold amounts of Trading Dialogues generally are influenced by GameSpeeds.
    (But not by Mapsize - almost no ingame modifiers are influenced by Mapsize.)

    The starting gold amount Native Nations offer and generally their willingness to Trade are influenced by Game Difficulty.
    (Bartering will then just use % values and randoms on that base.)

    Also the chances of success and price increases of Bartering are influenced by some traits of the Native Nation as well as their Attitude towards you.
    (So it will make a difference which Native Nation you are bartering with.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2020

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