What about the little guy?

[alpha2117]

Looking back into the past from the distance of two thousand years warps your sense of time. Alexander's empire crumbled quickly, but many other great ancient and medieval empires lasted for centuries or millennia. To use the Maurya Empire in India as an example, that's a relatively short-lived polity compared to Rome or China, but it's still literally longer than you can imagine, longer than any human being has ever lived. South Africa has only been around for twenty years, and may yet collapse into violence (as an unfortunate number of postcolonial nations already have).

You say there are a large number of big, stable modern countries. I say you can count them on one hand. Compare modern nations to the Maurya Empire—how many have lasted 137 years? Go back to 1876, find major nations that haven't experienced violent regime change. There's the United States, there's the United Kingdom (although it has lost almost its entire territory). Denmark, the Netherlands, and Sweden may not be major nations (and two of them were invaded by Germany in the interim), but they're major enough for Civ 5, so we'll count them. It's a bit of a stretch, since they had a democratic constitution forced on them by the US, but we could include Japan, since the Emperor has remained the nominal head of state this whole time. Throw in Switzerland, which is definitely not a major nation but certainly a stable one.

So: seven nations if we're being very generous; one if we're being strict.

Now think about ancient Egypt.

Okay

a) People are going off on a tangent here ... my response was that archeology was part of the mechanics that start to reflect a little more realism into the late game in that larger stable countries will in theory get more archeology sites whilst smaller focused empires got the better of the mechanic earlier with things like great works. I actually think design wise it's a pretty elegant way of reflecting one of the advantages of size where the old mechanics punished that a tad to much.

b) You are going off on a tangent somewhat in that things like United Kingdom and the Netherlands are small ... they aren't large ... they may have had empires but Empires are different to large countries. Why you are bringing in Denmark is a mystery to me.

My point was and still is that in modern times it's easier to have a truly huge country and not have it fall apart. Even when regime changes occur. look at Chinese history and there is a history of splintering and conquest leading to reunification followed by another split.

Australia, Argentina, Brazil, USA, Canada, Mexico, South America, China, India, Russia and Indonesia are all extremely large in terms of size in historic terms and even when some of them have experienced tremendous changes in government over the last 150 years they have'nt splintered into numerous sub groups. Russia went Communist and back again and eve after communism fell most of it's areas stayed as part of Russia rather than risk going off on their own. China went Communist, USA suffered through a short brutal civil war, India in unification and partition, Canada and Australia were released from the Empire and given independence, South Africa threw off the shackles of Apartheid etc etc. Societies of that size in the pre Industrial era rarely survived such upheaval. The Industrial era brought many things and one of them was cohesive large nations that dont splinter as easily. The more modern and the better your technology you are the more stable you tend to become despite size.

I see Archaeology as being in a small way one of the compensations for larger civs within the game in that you may have access to more sites within your territory. It's a small offset to the negatives the game throws at you for being wide but the CN Tower and that do go some way to giving larger civs some late game cultural bonuses reflecting reality.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Okay

a) People are going off on a tangent here ... my response was that archeology was part of the mechanics that start to reflect a little more realism into the late game in that larger stable countries will in theory get more archeology sites whilst smaller focused empires got the better of the mechanic earlier with things like great works. I actually think design wise it's a pretty elegant way of reflecting one of the advantages of size where the old mechanics punished that a tad to much.

b) You are going off on a tangent somewhat in that things like United Kingdom and the Netherlands are small ... they aren't large ... they may have had empires but Empires are different to large countries. Why you are bringing in Denmark is a mystery to me.

My point was and still is that in modern times it's easier to have a truly huge country and not have it fall apart. Even when regime changes occur. look at Chinese history and there is a history of splintering and conquest leading to reunification followed by another split.

Australia, Argentina, Brazil, USA, Canada, Mexico, South America, China, India, Russia and Indonesia are all extremely large in terms of size in historic terms and even when some of them have experienced tremendous changes in government over the last 150 years they have'nt splintered into numerous sub groups. Russia went Communist and back again and eve after communism fell most of it's areas stayed as part of Russia rather than risk going off on their own. China went Communist, USA suffered through a short brutal civil war, India in unification and partition, Canada and Australia were released from the Empire and given independence, South Africa threw off the shackles of Apartheid etc etc. Societies of that size in the pre Industrial era rarely survived such upheaval. The Industrial era brought many things and one of them was cohesive large nations that dont splinter as easily. The more modern and the better your technology you are the more stable you tend to become despite size.

I see Archaeology as being in a small way one of the compensations for larger civs within the game in that you may have access to more sites within your territory. It's a small offset to the negatives the game throws at you for being wide but the CN Tower and that do go some way to giving larger civs some late game cultural bonuses reflecting reality.

The other 'wide benefit' that becomes important in the Industrial-Modern Era is cultural defense

The more cities you have the more culture you put out... the less unhappiness you will get from other ideologies tourism (although the unhappiness from a particular level of public dissatisfaction might increase with cities or population)

 

[bcaiko]

Can't remember the source, but I'm prety sure I read that you can dig in another civ's territory. Just don't expect them to appreciate it.

Yeah. Ed Beach said so in his gameplay video with Adam Sessler.

 

[andrewlt]

From a gameplay perspective, it's not really ideal to have a victory condition suited to pressing end turn multiple times without doing anything.

 

[kaspergm]

I think OP does have a valid point, but hopefully the combined effect of National Wonders plus perhaps the exploration tree will give you the ability to get an edge as a narrow/tall civ. I know we get a diplo penalty for exploiting an archeological site in foreign lands, but it would be nice if that penalty did not apply before the civ itself had archeology discovered, and that hidden sites only give penalties if the foreign civ itself can see them. That way, it would encourage going for an early Archeology/Exploration to claim the sites without the penalty.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

From a gameplay perspective, it's not really ideal to have a victory condition suited to pressing end turn multiple times without doing anything.

Hence the fact that people can "defend" against your cultural victory.

Close Borders
Cut off Trade with you (either by UN Embargo, or War)
Expel diplomats (War.. possibly not allowing an embassy)
Adopt a different Religion than you (Missionaries, Inquisitors, closed borders)
Adopt a different Ideology than you ( Unhappiness costs)
Cutting Art Funding for Science Funding (UN)
Conquer your Tourism producing cities (mostly with Wonders.. but eventually they won't have anywhere to evacuate their Great Works to)
And of course increasing their own Culture.


And you can Counter Defend (other than just boosting your own tourism)
Pressure them with your Religion (Missionaries, Prophets, Inquisitors, UN world Religion)
Encourage them to switch to your ideology (UN World Ideology)
If they are at war, conquer their Culture producing cities (or City States)
If they are not at war, Send your trade caravans to them.. try to establish a Diplomat

 

[Gali]

The culture changes are definitely limiting the just press end turn aspect. Under old Culture victory there was very little benefit from conquering because you couldn't annex any city without significantly delaying your social policy growth. Add in that puppets tend to stay small and gold focused with minor culture outputs and conquest was quite rare.

Now with social policy cost per city decreased again and SPs not being the end all of victory having more than 3-4 cities is no longer nearly as crippling. They also greatly increased culture gains from conquering certain AI's. Previously all the culture you kept was in the form of wonders, and you were always going for the culture ones quickly. Now you can plunder the enemy civ's culture specialists, GW, and add them to your own. With their land you either inherit their archaeological digs through conquest or have access to them yourself. With reduced SP costs and tourism being only increased by additional cities you can be far more active as a cultural player.

Also building archaeologists and digging at sites, properly placing GW for theming bonuses and swapping GW for the proper diversity are all more active. Diplomacy also plays a far greater role. I want open borders with civs for a sizeable bonus, and a diplomat, and trade routes. Properly managing your limited spies and trade routes to maximize relations and tourism could be quite fun and important.

The WC will also be an important and active element. You want to get Arts Funding passed, and build the World Games for the tourism boost. Passing the relevant World resolutions for your Ideology and religion will also be quite useful, as will Historical monuments to boost your landmarks.

Starting off small and tall will remain the best solution. You can get those wonders and National wonders up quickly and be tall enough to work the specialists. The difference is you don't have to stay that way all game. Finally, since the vast majority of tourism is located in late game you can more easily flow into a culture victory. It might not be something that has to be decided upon before the game starts.

 

[Halcyan2]

One balance concern I have about the "little guy" (those with small but tall empires) is the implementation of Ideologies.

From what I've read, you can select an Ideology once you have either built 3 factories OR entered the Modern Age. The first person to adopt an ideology gets 2 bonus, the second one gets 1 bonus.

However, what happens to empires that only have 1 or 2 cities? Building 3 factories is impossible since you don't have 3 cities and waiting till Modern Age is way too long (the distance from Industrial to Modern is quite significant).

I really think the Ideology requirement should be build 3 factories OR enter the Modern Age OR every city you have has a factory (to address the 1 city and 2 city empires).

 

[Calouste]

One balance concern I have about the "little guy" (those with small but tall empires) is the implementation of Ideologies.

From what I've read, you can select an Ideology once you have either built 3 factories OR entered the Modern Age. The first person to adopt an ideology gets 2 bonus, the second one gets 1 bonus.

However, what happens to empires that only have 1 or 2 cities? Building 3 factories is impossible since you don't have 3 cities and waiting till Modern Age is way too long (the distance from Industrial to Modern is quite significant).

I really think the Ideology requirement should be build 3 factories OR enter the Modern Age OR every city you have has a factory (to address the 1 city and 2 city empires).

At that point in the game with a tall set up you should be floating in cash, enough to just buy a factory in a newly founded city.

 

[Halcyan2]

At that point in the game with a tall set up you should be floating in cash, enough to just buy a factory in a newly founded city.

Yes, but sometimes you *want* to play small. Maybe for the challenge. Maybe you're using OCC. Maybe you're Ethiopia and want the +20% combat bonus. Before the Cultural victory change, another major reason to keep it to 1-2 cities was to keep SP costs down. That may still remain a reason, but it's less of an issue now due to the Tourism mechanic.

 

[Buccaneer]

From a gameplay perspective, it's not really ideal to have a victory condition suited to pressing end turn multiple times without doing anything.

The better solution would be to have opponents that will prevent you from sitting back and cruising to a cultural victory and thus, giving you something real to do. Adding new mechanics may or may not change having you sit back and cruise to a victory.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well then late Ideology will be part of the cost of OCC (like no liberation)
However making it 3 or all cities seems like a good idea

 

[stealth_nsk]

However, what happens to empires that only have 1 or 2 cities? Building 3 factories is impossible since you don't have 3 cities and waiting till Modern Age is way too long (the distance from Industrial to Modern is quite significant).

That's a little bit extreme. The game is balanced around tall empires having 3-5 cities. I.e. Legalism works in the first 4 cities. Playing OCC is completely separate challenge and doesn't need to be covered by standard rules.

 

[Buccaneer]

That's a little bit extreme. The game is balanced around tall empires having 3-5 cities. I.e. Legalism works in the first 4 cities. Playing OCC is completely separate challenge and doesn't need to be covered by standard rules.

I agree with all of your points. 3 cities seem to have been the ideal number of cities for (non-OCC) cultural games - minimum number of cities to keep policy costs low but enough coverage for luxuries and land claims. For other victories, 4-5 is ideal with some good puppets. Hopefully this will still remain the same.

 

[Spry]

Gold is now gained through a limited number of trade routes, rather than from every city.

I imagine small empires are likely to be the richest in BNW (same trade, but less city maintenance), which should be good for the "little guy"

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[HeraldtheGreat]

Gold is now gained through a limited number of trade routes, rather than from every city.

I imagine small empires are likely to be the richest in BNW (same trade, but less city maintenance), which should be good for the "little guy"

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Plus I think they said there's a bonus for having many trade routes spreading from one city, it being a major trade stop and whatnot...

 

[flairin]

Just think about it... A smaller empire will be better able to exploit this mechanic in certain ways. For one thing a smaller empire has less cities to defend and so can amass an army to raze the cities of larger empires. In so doing, they have a good chance of extracting artifacts from these battles/city ruins!! Keep some archaeologists on hand with your armies...

 

[HeraldtheGreat]

Just think about it... A smaller empire will be better able to exploit this mechanic in certain ways. For one thing a smaller empire has less cities to defend and so can amass an army to raze the cities of larger empires. In so doing, they have a good chance of extracting artifacts from these battles/city ruins!! Keep some archaeologists on hand with your armies...

If you would attempt so, then you would have to do your warring early-game. Artifacts aren't created instantly!

 

[Stove]

A smaller empire has a diplomatic advantage because the AI only tends to hate large empires

 

[Buccaneer]

That's not true, esp if you are stronger and more aggressive military. Also try playing deity and see what happens when you build your second city.