What am i doing wrong?

[Pendr4gon]

Hello everybody, this is my first topic here, so excuse me if i'll ask things that have been said a million times in the past, but more then anything specific, i would just like to have a general idea of what are my main mistakes and how to get better, because even playing "just" at noble is leading me to losses most of the times, aside from a few lucky space victories here and there (mainly dependant on if i get opponent civs that will decide they feel like crushing me like a bug or not).

But let's go with order:

1) does it happen to anybody else that sometimes with neighbours like tokugawa and or monctezuma/gengis khan, with no copper or iron avaiable in the proximity of my territory (and for proximity i mean not being able to get it unless by going behind the borders of other civs, dozens of tiles away from your capital), you get immediatly attacked by a swarm of troops and can't resist just with archers and even if you do for a while, you end up being so damaged in your economy and research that you'll never recover from that?

1bis) is it just me, or since the last expansions ( i started playing again after a long stop from the base game, installing recently both expansions) the whole diplomacy got totally messed up? i seem to remember before that i used to be able to win by diplomacy, hell i remember that even my OPPONENT in the elections could eventually vote for me if we were friends enough. now even when i am friendly with somebody, it happens often that they don't even want to trade/make defensive pacts or whatever saying "we are not friends enough/we just don't like you enough" despite the relation stating "friendly" most of the times with a +10 or more in green, always providing help, free stuff to get boosts in relations... (even if i did have times they helped even by having just a "pleased" relation, but i just don't get the part where sometimes they won't help despite being "friends")

as if it wasn't enough, it is not rare at all that they suddenly switch side and declare war on me (from friendly), and not only one of them, but they seem to always go for me in 2 or 3 at a time, a few times it happened when they were even more then three, they had been fighting each other until a second before, and suddenly they all ally against me? why? i can understand crazy leaders like monctezuma or so to betray without reason, it's ok to backstab without notice sometimes, but the TIMING? all declaring war at once and by coincidence all against me? what's the diplomacy for anyway then? only for the computer to coordinate assaults against me? because the few times i manage to bribe a cpu against another, they ask me crazy amounts of gold and techs to then sign peace a turn or two later, resulting in the cpu that got bribed against, probably taking their revenge on me (if we weren't at war already anyway).

2) how does the cpu manage to expand early on with 10+ cities and still having a steady research rate while at the same time being costantly at war with somebody and full of troops!!!

usually i am always ahead of everyone with the research, and i try to build enough troops to hopefully discourage the cpu from attacking me, but it always ends up with a rotation of the cpus asking me for tributes all the times, getting pissed and declaring me war if i don't, and doing so as well if i give them, just a few turns later (if at all).

and i know that especially early games religion is the key, and being of the same one as the main forces can be vital, but let's take my last game as an example:


i start off close to the coast, in a small peninsula, my only way out is already cut by the capital of sit bull. i manage to make a few towns (three totals) in the few space i had at my disposal, and then i am forced to go war with him at some point because the game wasn't going anywhere obviously with such a low amount of land (or at least i don't think it is possible for me anyway).
i had discovered as first hinduism and then confusionism with the oracle, but the other three civs on the continent had discovered and turned all to buddism (ofc).
sit bull converted to confusionism, i stayed with no official religion to don't anger everybody with me (i was still getting the money from the special buildings of the religions anyway). eventually it ends up with a zerg against sit bull from whom i get some towns and eventually manage to convert in my vassal.

unfortunately by that time not even a single town i owned had been spread with buddism, and despite being "pleased" with all of the other civs (helped them, trades, borders and so), a few turns later they all declared war on me at the same time (same turn)... i barely managed to resist until at some point i made peace with 2 of them and conquered some towns of another, making peace with him as soon as possible (short on money and running low on tech obviously, and he would declare war again every 20 turns or so /sigh i was lacking the firepower to end him totally once and for all, and at the same time the other two had grown much more powerful and avanced).

now, it still wans't over, but i could already see that i had no chance. the united nations were already built, i was in the middle as score, with no way to catch up the top, despite having converted to buddism nobody wanted to trade or sign defensive teatries/alliances with me, i had tried with the civs from the other continent while i was still with no official religion, but they didn't want either... i was totally on my own, behind with technology and with the only real possibility being, once again, the space ship, even if a slim chance at best, i had recovered some ground but i don't think i would have been able to catch up to give it a real try anyway, and that's it if some other civs wouldn't have gone nuts with me in the process.

so now i just keep asking myself if the random factor of which kind of leaders you are gonna meet, and if they are gonna be close to you or not early game, if you are gonna get the same religion as the rest from the start, enough resources and so, are all things REQUIRED, to be able to win or i am just plain bad (and i think i know the answer already but still...)

i am open for any kind of tips obviously, actually they would be very welcome.

3) anybody that manages to win reliably with diplomacy in BTS? if so, please, please, share with me what you do to make people vote for you... at most, sometimes, i can get one guy to vote for me if at all. the others, even if friendly with me and "worst enemy" of my opponent on the votation abstain... (and i understand that they do so to prevent the player from winning, but then what's the point of the votation/diplomacy anyway, if i had to conquer enough land/make enough vassals so that i would have enough votes to win by just voting myself, i would be in the conditions to win by conquest anyway)

and that is, by cutting out that religion building i can't recall the name, i just hate it and never even try to build it by principle.

anyway sorry if i have been so long with my rant and sorry for my bad english (i bet many people's eyes will bleed ), i hope it's understandable enough.

 

[LegionSteve]

Welcome to the forums Pendr4gon

First of all I went from vanilla CIV 4 straight to BtS and yes I definitely found it harder. Even more so after all the patches fixed some silly things the AI was doing. But lots of people have said they had to drop a level or 2 to get used to BtS so don't worry about that.

I think the religious building you mean is the Apostolic Palace. This is really really annoying at first but when you get used to it, it can be useful. Now I sometimes build it just to get the extra hammers in every city from temples. As for diplomatic victories, I have never done one by making people like me. I have only ever done it by making them my vassals so they have to vote for me.

The best advice I can give you is start a new game with the settings you like to play, save the first turn and upload it and post it in the Strategy & Tips forum. Ask what your first moves should be and you will get some good advice. Then play a few turns and post another save and upload it again. I play on monarch level and win a bit more than I lose but I still find it very useful to ask for advice in the Strategy and Tips forum when I'm not sure what to do.

 

[PreLynMax]

...
2) how does the cpu manage to expand early on with 10+ cities and still having a steady research rate while at the same time being costantly at war with somebody and full of troops!!!

That's the question that plagues me even to this very day. I started to ask myself in another thread earlier.
My only logical solution is the AI cheats... even in Noble.

 

[Honkoid]

The AI is on equal footing with you on noble
Your questions have been answered many times in many aspects in this forum, so please excuse me for only refering some threads to you

First stop is the war academy with many good in-depth-articles as well as newbie guides. Another recommendation is the ALC Series of Sisiutil, where you find a variety of well documented games and lively discussions that give insight into the thinking of better players.
You'll find numerous other well documented games in the sample game directory.

Finally some general things most new players can improve.
Expand FAST. Don't care about the slider going to 0% percent as long as you will be able to recover by
a) building and working cottages (Pottery is critical)
b) research by specialists (writing -> libraries)
c) reseach by building research (Alphabet)
d) tech trading with the AIs, although once you've reached a certain skill they won't have much to trade to you on noble.
Once you get to Currency and Code of Laws in time by using these techniques your worries will fade.
Land is power. It only might take some time to reap the rewards.

Build enough workers. Have at least one per city, many seasoned players even recommend two per city. Every unimproved tile your cities work is a waste.

Build cities with enough food nearby, preferably in form of one or more food ressources or flood plains, if not otherwise possible at least irrigatable grasslands.

Try to specialize some of your cities for commerce and science and others for troop production. Not every city needs libraries.

Trust me, once you get a fundamental understanding of the game you'll stomp over the noble AIs.


edit: Ah, yes Welcome to the forums

 

[IAM]

Welcome Pendr4gon!

 

[Pendr4gon]

thanks guys

i had a look around the various sections of the forum and found an amazing amount of great info.

i would still like to know though, if there's somebody who managed to win by diplomacy in BTS and by diplomacy i mean thanks to the votes of most of the cpus, not just your vote counting for more then half of the total and then one cpu or two maximum voting for you

i never been able to keep a good relation with more then 2 cpu at friendly (and sometimes they wouldn't want to vote for me either), and maybe one at pleased, unable to go higher then that.

i tried to create a religion (actually as many as i could) and spread them among the cpus, but sooner or later one of them would discover at least one if not more religions and they would convert to their own.

any way to keep the diplomacy in good terms without relying on the religion? i can see how remaining friend of everyone is gonna be impossible, but at least most of them...

it's funny how most of the times when i try to be diplomatic and peaceful, with small armies, i end up having many cpu at friendly, all turning against me at the same time, while if i focus on military and go for the space victory by being the most advanced and maybe with a defensive pact with the second strongest, then i can have everybody else at furious but they won't even dare thinking about declaring me war (but they do advance ridicolous requests of tributes/war assistance every 5 turns or so).

edit: actually it was pretty funny how for the first time i was so advanced that the korean leader first offered by his own will to become my vassal, and then when thanks to the apostolic palace i had to go war with him, i only had to take one of his town for him to offer capitulation despite having still at least 5 cities. usually they would capitulate to me only after long costly wars and only their last town or two still standing

edit2: i also tried to "free" a colony i built giving it indipendence. after a few turns he broke free and never wanted to become my vassal again, stating how my land was too far away or something like that ???

 

[PreLynMax]

It still dosent answers the question... especially when you expand fast, or expand until your science goes to 0%, you will always end up... far behind.
Equal footing my eye.

 

[peppe1]

That's the question that plagues me even to this very day. I started to ask myself in another thread earlier.
My only logical solution is the AI cheats... even in Noble.

Noble is equal footing with the player on costs/production etc. Are you whipping your cities at an optimal rate or you just letting them grow beyond the happiness cap and wasting resources on unhappy citizens? The computer is whipping each of his cities and good players do as well. There is a massive production difference between a civ that uses slavery to whip production and one that does not. There are many articles on how to best use slavery/whipping.

The next critical item early game is managing your workers. Most understand that you want to bring the special tiles online quickly, but the real secret early game is effective chopping of the forest. You want to time the chopping to finish critical items or items that stagnate your city while they are being built (settlers, workers).

I don't know if there is a mod to let you watch the AI play, but i think the BetterAI mod has a script to let you switch sides, so it might be useful to run that mod and see what the computer is doing every once in a while. Or get yourself into a jam and see how the AI recovers your civ. Its rare to be in a truly hopeless situation.

To the original poster:
1) Tough starts happen. I'm just a noble player using BetterAI mod, so I can't say there is always an options, but usually its a question of taking a risk earlier in the game so you are the one with the critical resource. I usually tech quickly to reveal copper/iron as those are huge early game and missing both is bad.

2) See above for how the AI is out expanding you. Generally I rex for a while, economy collapses under maintenance as I b-line to code of law to get courthouses up. I also focus on getting the science buildings so i can run science specialists to keep the beaker count high. Some games I cut it too close and the funding drops to zero and some units may even disband, but that is only an issue if you can't get to courthouses to recover.

I then take inventory, specialize cities where I can and recover the economy. Whichever city can support the most specialists becomes the super science city. Once this city gets oxford university it will do 40-60% of my overall research from just specialists. I am not great at running a specialist economy, but this city is very easy to put together (Pyramids helps a ton to run Representation civic early, but I would recommend fighting to capture them instead of building them yourself unless you have an industrious leader or stone nearby).

At that point in the game you can think about victory plans as you should be basically out of room to expand peacefully and should be thinking about what to do mid-game.

3) I've had a couple 'diplomatic' victories, but usually I was the dominant military force and it was quicker to end the game by a vote than to finish the conquest. I play for war, so haven't tinkered with diplomacy, but have read some game recaps on here where poeple were able to pacify the AI long enough with techs and bribes to get a culture victory. U.N. Victory through pure diplomacy is probably pretty hard/rare.