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What are the Gods' opposite aspects?

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by Ekolite, Nov 12, 2009.

  1. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

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    Agares was originally the God of hope, but when he fell he beecame the God of Despair. Camulos was originally the God of Peace, now he's the God of War. But what are the other God's opposite aspects?

    Do the neutral Gods actually have an opposite aspect? Or do Gods perhaps have a good, neutral and evil aspect?
     
  2. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    There is a difference between opposite spheres and corrupted spheres.


    Every god but Dagda has an opposite sphere, represented by another god. (Dagda is the opposite of any sphere taken too far.) Before the fall these were probably more complementary than antagonistic.

    Dagda/Balance

    Lugus/Light - Esus/Trust/Deception
    Sirona/Spirit - Aeron/Strength/Rage
    Bhall/Fire/Passion - Danalin/Water/Serenity
    Nantosuelta/Enchantment - Ceridwen/Dimensional
    Nemed/Arawn/Sucellus/Life - Arawn/Death
    Junil/Law - Camulos/Peace/War
    Oghma/Matamagic/Knowledge/Memory - Mammon/Foresight/Greed
    Kilmorph/Earth/Responsibility - Tali/Air/Irresponsibility
    Sucellus/Nature/Gradual Change - Mulcarn/Ice/Stasis/Reactionaryism
    Amathaon/Fertility - Agares/Hope/Despair (ok, I don't really see how this one works before the fall)

    Some spheres are also rather close together, making multiple spheres seem like opposites of some. Sirona could be considered the opposite of essentially any evil god


    Each sphere entails a range of closely related aspects. The fallen gods still represent the same sphere but in a fallen, corrupted way, in which the darker aspects are emphasized.

    The Angel of Hope became the Angel of False Hope, which leads to Despair.

    Aeron's strength to protect the weak became strength for strengths sake, a right which the strong had to use against the weak.

    Camulos once represented the peaceful anarchism of everyone getting along without need for laws or external authority. That became a total rejection of external authority, a belief that all views are subjective so one cannot be better than another, and the view that every individual should have complete freedom to do to anyone ese whatever he wants without needing a reason. This changed Harmony to Strife.

    Mammon's ability to see the future changed to a need to be in control of the future by controlling physical possessions, political power, etc.

    Mulcarn really did not change much, he just became slightly more extreme.

    Ceridwen's sphere of positional worth went to the extreme of denying all intrinsic worth.

    Esus's trust became the ability to abuse the trust of others.




    Archangels often represent a slightly different aspect of the sphere than do their gods, although they are close enough to be of the same alignment. Note that while they are heavily dominated by one sphere their souls do however contain aspects of other spheres giving them freedom to act opposed to their spheres when they so choose, a freedom which gods lack.

    Tali is very good-natured and fun-loving, but Leucetious (Bringer of Storms) seems to represent the danger that comes from irresponsibility.

    Sabathiel seems to represent the loyalty that comes from love of justice, while Junil too often seems to represent legalism and doing what is right only from fear of consequences.

    Basium hates Sucellus, and embodies the life sphere by sacrificing all to continue his war against evil, while Sucellus embodies it by sacrificing himself in a failed attempt to stop Mulcarn and returning to bring healing to the world.





    Any sphere taken too far can be destructive. Too much Spirit can lead to pointless self-sacrifice, essentially suicide. Too much Law is a total lack of freedom. Too much Sun is tactless, biting criticism and unbridled nosiness into the private affairs of others.
     
  3. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

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    OK that's interesting. What would the other Gods become the Gods of if they were corrupted though? It seems like they would essentially be the same as their opposing God. For eg, if Junil fell, what would he become?
     
  4. GeeJo

    GeeJo Flibbertigibbet

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    If Fertility were phrased as Creation, I can see how it would complement Hope quite nicely.
     
  5. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I suspect a fallen Junil would be more like Aeron than Camulos. He already has a lot of trouble getting along with Sirona. Canonically the Bannor do fall while sticking to the Law sphere even tough they turn away from the true worship of their god and persecuted anyone with real faith. A fallen Junil would probably be a lot more like them. He would be at least as legalistic as he is now, but would not care for real justice in the slightest. He would not care about protecting anyone, only punishing violations of the law. He would likely be too stubborn to actually join Agares, but could do a lot of harm to the side of good while still calling himself good. Although I've never seen this in a real Latin dictionary, I've read that the Romans considered the opposite of Fasces (the double axe and bundle of sticks that represented the law and the authority to inflict corporal or capital punishment) to be Nefasces (the same bundle, when used by someone in a position of authority but against the protections of the law to punish the innocent instead of the guilty). A fallen Junil may represent that, the abuse of power by a state or authority figure.



    I suspect a fallen Lugus would mercilessly torment us with the truths we are not willing to accept but cannot refute. He would pierce us to the core with accusations of our sinfulness and tell us we could never hope to make up for our failings and so should not bother trying. He would make us obsess over our faults to the point of not being able to accomplish anything of worth. He would represent the fear of what others think of us, and the desire to find fault with others.


    Nantosuelta's value of intrinsic worth could transition into Egotism not unlike Aeron's. Her lack of care for positional worth could result in a rebellion against all social norms and a spirit of rebellion like Camulos's. She could alienate us from friends and make us too open with strangers.

    Before his fall Agares and Sirona were the closest of friends, so she would probably be very similar to him if corrupted. I suppose Sirona could become about self-pity. She would continue to be about accepting those who don't deserve acceptance, but in order to bring the rest of society down rather than improve the condition of the poor. She would try to make sure that sins are never punished and often rewarded.


    A fallen Sucellus would likely be a lot like Ceridwen. Life already entails fighting on for some obsession past the point where it would make sense to give up. It represents giving things up for something greater. Basium's fanaticism for fighting evil would be nothing compared to a fallen god of life, who would drive up to self-destruct in generally vain attempts to fulfill deep set but foolish desires.


    I'm not so sure about Amathaon. I suppose his irresponsibility could be an issue. His sphere is already considered the most powerful if and when it works (it usually doesn't). He represents the creative spark but tends not to have the will to carry through with what he starts. A fallen Amathaon might encourage us to abandon responsibilities at the first sign of difficulty. His love for reproduction and young children could give way to him encouraging promiscuous sex and abandoning one's offspring.


    We've already seen Bhall's passion turned to evil.
     
  6. evanb

    evanb Chieftain

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    Heh, yes, I see it now. Creation of material things, versus imagining stuff. I... think?:confused:
     
  7. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

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    Yeah I guess so. I think Hope would lead to fantasising and so on, so it would literally be creation of reality verses creation of fantasy.
     
  8. FireBlaze

    FireBlaze Chieftain

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    What would a fallen Dagda/Arawn be like?
     
  9. fractalfeline

    fractalfeline Chieftain

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    I always imagined a fallen Arawn to be Supremely Emo. Glorified death, suicide as a means to escape suffering, encouraged martyrdom for the sake of self-glory, that sort of thing. Perhaps a very entropy-embracing stance, as in Death is the end of all things, the natural conclusion, and working to bring death faster?

    I would imagine a fallen Dagda to be an agent that forces balance, to the point where there are no extremes, and life becomes a dull, neutral entity, without variety or passion.
     
  10. Darksaber1

    Darksaber1 Secret Emperor

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    For a diffrence between A fallen Arawn and normal arawn would likly be the diffrence between Murkyl and Kelemvor in the Forggotten Realms
    Fallen: Dark and evil of death, death as a punishment and something to fear, "Death is inevitable, give up"
    Normal: Death as the natural order of things, a rest after the struggles of life.
     
  11. Avahz Darkwood

    Avahz Darkwood Chieftain

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    Death would be feared as his realm would become a place of nightmares and torment, much like the Christian Hell... Only those of strong will would be able to adapt. IIRC most people end up here, those "lukewarm" individuals would best serve another god out of fear in hopes of avoiding this realm, and maybe become a demon...
     
  12. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I think Kael has at least once implied that Arawn has already sort of fallen, not by actively turning evil and siding with Agares but simply through dereliction of duty. The sphere of rest has become more associated with apathy, especially a willingness for good men to do nothing and so let evil triumph. Originally Kael said that Arawn occasionally struck out against the undead and withdrew from creation to make necromancy impossible (until Tuoni stole the Opalus Mortis). I noticed however that after all references to the gems being stolen by the three brothers disappeared from the 'pedia that Kael once claimed that death magic takes the form of necromancy because Arawn has given up on giving his sphere the guidance it needs to be beneficial. I can't see Arawn ever choosing to actively side with evil, but passively letting it win fits him very well.




    Similarly the sphere of Water sort of fell when Danalin chose to go to sleep and refuse to wake up to face the world. Due in large part to Hastur's influence, his sphere is changing from being about inner peace, dispassionate love, meditation, and the wisdom that comes from experience and long pensive contemplation to instead involve insanity and the turmoil of conflicting feelings too long left unexpressed.



    I also think it is impossible for Dagda to switch sides, as he won't join any side but insists on staying neutral. He may however often commit the grey fallacy, seeking a compromise in areas where compromise may actually be worse than giving in to the inferior position. Also note that while he would prefer to equalize people, being more generous to the poor than the rich, that when the poor agree to anything they shouldn't he will force them to go through with it. I suspect his name in invoked in all demonic pacts and Faustian bargains.
     
  13. Skitters

    Skitters Chieftain

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    The notes on Arawn kind of reminds me of Terry Pratchett's "Mort" - where Death goes awol and there isn't anyone to collect souls - well apart from an apprentice (Mort)...and the death of rats...

    From an FFH2 perspective, whilst the notion is that Arawn has withdrawn, is there an element of him having to gather up souls - and if so - wouldn't the worst thing be for him to actively stops more souls entering his vault? (...if only because the Evil Gods would presumably have a mass harvest!)
     
  14. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Souls of the deceased in Erebus are naturally drawn to the Underworld, and funneled into it through the Wells of Creation. In the immediate vicinity of a Well the urge to move on to the next life is irresistible, that is if one is dead. It could be that this desire is a natural attraction to Arawn, but it is not active collection by the God of Death.

    There are 2 wells of creation described in lore (maybe 3, as Brandeline's well might be another one). The best known of these is the Well of Shadows, in which the Once Elves dwelt once they escaped from Laroth. I could describe it is detail, but probably shouldn't reveal such details from Ashes of Brigdarror. The other is the well on the Isle of Nemora, called the Well of Souls if I recall correctly, which is what Laroth and Arak the Erkling's band of elven mercenaries first used to enter the Netherworld. I suspect that there is one Well of Creation for each sphere. It is possible that before The Compact allowed gods to claim mortal souls each god made a well designed specifically to draw his own followers to Arawn's realm.


    Nemora was the greatest paradise on Erebus when Kylorin found it while tracking Laroth. By the time of the campaigns things have however changed. This is where Ceridwen took Tebryn when she brought him back to life and showed him how to close the well. Without proper drainage, the souls of the dead could not find rest. They could not truly live or die, and were easy pickings for necromancers and for demons looking for new recruits. (There was a powerful necromancer among the Once Elves in the Well of Shadows too, but his ability to capture souls on their way to find rest pales in comparison to the ability to enslave the souls that puddled up on Nemora without hope of moving on.) The paradise quickly decayed into what is called The Dead Lands.


    While Arawn himself may not have cared, Gyra tried to stop him. (It was always her job to guard the passageways that souls use to go from Erebus to the Netherworld, while her twin brother Basium guarded the gates back to Erebus.) She failed. It is not clear, but she may even have been trapped within the runes that closed the well, unable to enter Erebus directly or go home to the Netherworld to guard the other Wells.
     
  15. Kyzarc Fotjage

    Kyzarc Fotjage Rise Up

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    so was Agares the god of Entropy mana before he fell?
     
  16. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    There was not entropy mana at the time. Before his fall his precept was known as "Hope."
     

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