What are the oldest civs currently surviving?
- Thread starter donilpark
- Start date
Fr8monkey
Deity
Welcome to Civfanatics! I have always been good at history; But I may be out of my league here. The following I believe art the top 6 in age:
- 1. Egypt - 5000 BC
- 2. Sumarian (Mesopotamian) - 5000+ BC
- 3. Korea - 2300 BC
- 4. Greek - 2100 BC
- 5. China (Shang Dynasty) - 1800 BC
- 6. Babylonians - 1800 BC
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Rome didn't come arround until 750 BC and the Persians about 700 BC. I knew that old history book would come in useful!
Ribannah
Fighter Druid
Egypt: it depends on what you call civilization. Only from 3800 BC onward did settling take place on a large scale.
Nubia is of about the same age as Egypt.
In China, before the Shang there was the Xia dynasty, and many prospering cultures before the Xia since ca. 5000 BC.
Nubia is of about the same age as Egypt.
In China, before the Shang there was the Xia dynasty, and many prospering cultures before the Xia since ca. 5000 BC.
billindenver
King
I'd say China as well, although it's debateable. Egypt, as a civilization, was taken by the Greeks in the early BC's, the Romans in the early AD's, then the English and French later on.
It's a hard question to answer without more parameters. What do you consider a civ surviving to be? If it means the longest continuous period with the same type of govt and ruling itself, the answer might be the US. If it means the longest civ to survive without being invaded, the answer might be Britain.
sabo
My Ancestors were Vikings
Originally posted by Fr8monkey
Welcome to Civfanatics! I have always been good at history; But I may be out of my league here. The following I believe art the top 6 in age:
- 1. Egypt - 5000 BC
- 2. Sumarian (Mesopotamian) - 5000+ BC
- 3. Korea - 2300 BC
- 4. Greek - 2100 BC
- 5. China (Shang Dynasty) - 1800 BC
- 6. Babylonians - 1800 BC
[/list=1]
Rome didn't come arround until 750 BC and the Persians about 700 BC. I knew that old history book would come in useful!
But aren't the Babalons history and don't exist anymore? Babalon turned into Iraq.
Sparrowhawk
The Builder
Well, the Brits haven't been properly invaded and conquered since the norman french in 1066CE, so that's almost one thousand years... I think that actually, Japan has the title. Though chinese civilization began earlier, they were conquered by the mongols, while the japanese were not.
As for a definition of a civ surviving, may I offer mine? I would say that as long as a civ has had a continuous series of rulers who originate within its own borders the civ has 'survived'. That rules out many, such as Egypt (conquered by many different empires) and India (previously ruled by the brits) for example. It still leaves quite a few in the running though. The japanese may have the title, but the chinese (since the mongols) are also up there in age.
As for a definition of a civ surviving, may I offer mine? I would say that as long as a civ has had a continuous series of rulers who originate within its own borders the civ has 'survived'. That rules out many, such as Egypt (conquered by many different empires) and India (previously ruled by the brits) for example. It still leaves quite a few in the running though. The japanese may have the title, but the chinese (since the mongols) are also up there in age.
Sparrowhawk
The Builder
So what you're asking is not so much which civilizations have survived, but which areas in the world have the longest history of civilization of any sort. In which case Fr8tmonkey's list is pretty good.
If you're looking for more info, you might want to pose your question in the history forum instead of Civ III general topics.
Quillan
Monkey Butler
No civilization alive today has been intact as long as China... at least according to Jared Diamond, author of the fabulous book: Guns, Germs, and Steel.
Highly recommended.
Highly recommended.
satchel
Prince
The question is ill-defined; are you looking for the longest continuing civilization? The region in which some kind of civilization has existed for the longest period? You said "surviving" but I'm not sure what that means.
As far as I know, the first "civilization" emerged in Mesopotamia - Sumer - in the area of the Fertile Crescent that is now part of Iraq. However, it is unlikely that modern Iraqis feel a cultural connection to that ancient civilization, as they are completely disconnected with regard to language, religion, ethnicity, and so on.
It's important to bear in mind that the evolution of real civilizations is really nothing at all like the evolution of civs in the game.
As far as I know, the first "civilization" emerged in Mesopotamia - Sumer - in the area of the Fertile Crescent that is now part of Iraq. However, it is unlikely that modern Iraqis feel a cultural connection to that ancient civilization, as they are completely disconnected with regard to language, religion, ethnicity, and so on.
It's important to bear in mind that the evolution of real civilizations is really nothing at all like the evolution of civs in the game.
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
As everybody already said, depends alot on what you mean by "surviving" and "civilization". China's strong contender as long as you don't demand that they've never been conquered by foreigners.
Now, there are conquests and conquests. The Mongol and Manchu conquests of China certainly meant that political power passed out of native hands, but the supremacy of Chinese culture, language and bureaucracy wasn't affected. By contrast, the old Mesopotamian culture was eventually absorbed into Islamic culture, altho' only a full thousand years after the last native ruler (Nabonid) got booted out by the Persians.
The place that's been "civilized", ie had cities, writing etc, the longest is Mesopotamia.
Now, there are conquests and conquests. The Mongol and Manchu conquests of China certainly meant that political power passed out of native hands, but the supremacy of Chinese culture, language and bureaucracy wasn't affected. By contrast, the old Mesopotamian culture was eventually absorbed into Islamic culture, altho' only a full thousand years after the last native ruler (Nabonid) got booted out by the Persians.
The place that's been "civilized", ie had cities, writing etc, the longest is Mesopotamia.
Sim_One
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2002
- Messages
- 1,073
I think this thread probably belongs in the World History Forum.
The oldest civilization should be Nile River valley civilizations, Tigris and Euphrates River valley civilizations, Indus River valley civilizations, and Yellow River valley civilizations.
The oldest civilization should be Nile River valley civilizations, Tigris and Euphrates River valley civilizations, Indus River valley civilizations, and Yellow River valley civilizations.
Sultan Bhargash
Trickster Reincarnated
If you mean oldest surviving Civs, that is a whole nother ball game, maybe Japan takes it for that, maybe China depending what you want to count.
Egypt, Sumeria, Babylon, Persia were submerged in other cultures for a long time, most lately Arab culture.
Egypt, Sumeria, Babylon, Persia were submerged in other cultures for a long time, most lately Arab culture.
Arrian
Warlord
I'd go with China.
-Arrian
-Arrian
Zcylen
Moonlight Rambler
There's none but JAPAN
Japan Rules!
Japan Rules!
No, I don't care how long it has been ruled by the same dynasty or how long it has stayed uninvaded.
I just wanna know what 'people' have the oldest ancestors with the same title as they are. That is, 'Do Americans have 'American' ancestors older than China?' Certainly not. They must have had their own ancestors, but they were not 'Americans'. Many of 'American ancestors' were probably 'British' or something.
Do you understand what I'm saying?
I just wanna know what 'people' have the oldest ancestors with the same title as they are. That is, 'Do Americans have 'American' ancestors older than China?' Certainly not. They must have had their own ancestors, but they were not 'Americans'. Many of 'American ancestors' were probably 'British' or something.
Do you understand what I'm saying?
If you consider it in terms of dynasty or ruling as civ, then China would be newer than America right? (that is, People's republic of China)
So I want to know the order of nations' founding order.
You don't say that the Chinese are not Chinese because they are citizens of the People' Republic of China, as opposed to the citizens of Shang dynasty.
So I want to know who is oldest in this sense.
They could have been conquered by others at some point of their history, but that doesn't make them 'eliminated' from the earth. Right?
So...
So I want to know the order of nations' founding order.
You don't say that the Chinese are not Chinese because they are citizens of the People' Republic of China, as opposed to the citizens of Shang dynasty.
So I want to know who is oldest in this sense.
They could have been conquered by others at some point of their history, but that doesn't make them 'eliminated' from the earth. Right?
So...
Sultan Bhargash
Trickster Reincarnated
Donilpark- if that is your criteria, good candidates include:
The Hebrews- maintained name and cultural traditions for 6000 years
The Ethiopians- almost as old as the Hebrews and one of the longest unbroken chains of rulership up till the 1970s.
The !Kung San- with other hunter gatherer groups, no one can begin to estimate how long they have maintained continuity, but we do know that:
The Aboriginees of Australia have done so for about 40,000 years.
Of course, none of these are "hot" civs for the typical civ fan...
The Hebrews- maintained name and cultural traditions for 6000 years
The Ethiopians- almost as old as the Hebrews and one of the longest unbroken chains of rulership up till the 1970s.
The !Kung San- with other hunter gatherer groups, no one can begin to estimate how long they have maintained continuity, but we do know that:
The Aboriginees of Australia have done so for about 40,000 years.
Of course, none of these are "hot" civs for the typical civ fan...
Sim_One
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2002
- Messages
- 1,073
Sultan what is your definition of a "civilization"? Some of my criteria is that it must have some sort of central government and that a considerable portion of the population must be some sort of "specialists", such as priests, scribes, artisans, etc., so perhaps the Kung San or the Aboriginees wouldn't fit.
