What Civs' Unique Abilites would you like to see changed?

[QuipCloud]

I hope this topic hasn't been covered but I've searched a few pages back and haven't seen anything like this - so apologies if I have missed it.

I was wondering with the new expansion what existing Civs people would like to see changed in BNW. At the moment we have some really great ones combined with some more.... lacklustre ones. Rome for example has a great UA - amazing for wide empires. On the other hand:

England: Changed with G&K but still weak - the two extra movement points seem slightly ineffective even for very maritime orientated Civs, and the extra spy seems fairly limited.

Celts: Annoying and weak. The bonus faith often isn't very much at all (especially when 90% of the time you can get a good Parthenon anyway) and it isn't enough to justify having several tiles of unused forest. Okay, to be fair, this does depend on how hilly your starting position is.

Sweden: I'm sure I am not alone in thinking this is a horrible, horrible trait. GP are too precious to give a away the vast majority of the time. The other aspect (10% increased GP generation) is very weak.

Songhai: A boost would be welcome.

What does everyone else think?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

England: I disagree. England is very powerful. If you unite the SoTL with the Sun Never Sets UA, they own the coasts. You can't ignore synergy between UAs and UUs.

Celts: The Celts' power comes from getting a pantheon and religion before all others, benefiting from the Belief bonuses earlier and for longer. Once that has been accomplished, feel free to improve or chop the forests as you see fit.

Sweden is awesome. You just have to change the way you think about Great People. Just imagine that each one has a new ability that gives you an instant alliance with a city-state. The bonus to GP generation stacks with each DoF, so with 5 DoF's you have 50%.

I think the Songhai are just fine. They aren't super powerful, but they aren't weak either.

The only one I'd like to see changed for the better is India.

 

[codepoet]

Polynesia. The early embarking is annoying every time I encounter them. To the point I'll restart the game when I meet them...

 

[Dragonflow]

India should be changed.

 

[Petiscator]

England: disagree. The +2 movement is much better than it sounds like, specially if you associate it with the Ship of the Line, that UU is a sea monster! An extra spy is actually pretty good, means you can steal double techs than anyone else in the renaissance/rig more elections/rig elections OR steal techs AND protect your capital.

Celts: I don't play them a lot, actually I was planning to start a new game as them during this week, but they can get a pantheon pretty fast, actually, and the first one. Not the best ability, I agree, but it is definitely helpful, great if you are city-spamming. My problem with them is that I find it hard to get so many woody cities.

Sweden: Major disagree, Sweden is GREAT. Really, all the generals you get through warring, the prophets from religion, they are neat! A new GP = a new alliance. Of course, you won't gift scientists and engineers (and sometimes, artists), but they can overthrow other player's influences with a single GP. A strategy I often use as them is to get a religion asap, pick Interfaith Dialogue (gains science from prophet and missionary conversions) and, as an enhancer, Messiah (prophets 25% cheaper and 25% stronger). I also manage to get the Great Mosque of Djenne, and then, I maximise my faith output and get Prophets like mad. I use them to convert other player's cities (earning science from the founder) and, when there is only 1 conversion left, I gift them to a CS I want. You can also get as many GG and GAdmiral as possible through war, and capture enemy Prophets to get some Mercantile alliances, aiding in your happiness. The 10% per friendships stacks, so it isn't weak at all. Try playing as them on a very big map against 21 civs. Duude. Of course, 21 civs aren't necessary, but the bonus is really good to help you get some engineers/scientists. Sweden is one of my favorite civs to play, and they are very good

Songhais: I'm not sure. I like their UA, the triple gold from barbs really help in early gold generation and the tripple from conquering cities can get you some ridiculous amounts of gold. The Amphibious and War Canoe promos aren't game changing but are quite nice to have.

I think they should change India, though. Apart from adapting the civs to the expansion, of course

 

[QuipCloud]

Really? I think we'll have to agree to disagree about England - Sun Never Sets provides mobility but many ships already have a great deal of that. I'm more of the opinion a great unit like the Ship of the Line should have an economic ability to support it, rather than something that barely aids it. Combine this with situations where there is little strategic water or maybe a very unfortunate starting position and England is basically crippled.

Ah, but the point is that the Celts get a parthanon about five turns before anyone else but it hardly gives them a lasting advantage. I don't know - I'm just not fond of that ability.

Sweden? Eeesh, I can only see myself giving away merchants or prophets. Admirals, Generals, Engineers, Scientists and Artists give long term gains if used correctly which are much more reliable than the relationships with Citystates.

India are okay-ish. Good for cultural victories but seeing how these are getting changed, yes, I think they need some revision there.

Polynesia are powerful - you can pick up some very neat city spots early on - but the problem is it doesn't match their UI - that favours Culture more than anything and that doesn't exactly benefit an expanding civ (what you want to do with their UA)

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

I'm hoping INdia will remove the negative "Ability" because I feel it's kinda unfair that they get a negative benefit in their ability while everyone else is purely beneficial.

 

[Petiscator]

Keep in mind that Sun Never Sets also affects embarked units. Allied with the Commerce tree and the Great Lighthouse, the Sotls get to 9 movement, which is pretty bad ass, IMO. England is fine. Won't shine as bright on Pangaea as it would on Continents or Archipellago, but then you have an awesome second UU, the Longbowman. Also, you should only compare bad starts to bad starts: nothing says "damn" as loud as an inland carthaginian start or a no-city states siamese start.

You should try Sweden in game, though. They don't sound amazing, but they are, I was also surprised when I played my first game as them. I'd give my generals and admirals most of the time, the merchants and prophets would all go, engineers, scientists an artists are indeed too valuable. Follow the patronage tree and it sounds even better: the CS alliance not only will provide the regular bonus, but will fall at -25% rate, get you 25% of the science they produce to themselves, will ocasionaly gift you GP (which you can gift back/use), get you bonus happiness... I like them a lot, fairly strong civ. If you don't like to gift them, you also get the +10% GP per friendship, which will help you generate more useful GP. One way or the other (or both), they rule. My opinion, though

 

[SnowKomodo]

Basically India is the only civ 100% of us agree needs fixing.

Anything else and at least one person around here will respond with "I disagree, they are actually good because ______".

 

[QuipCloud]

Valid points, Petiscator. I think I've just had several bad runs with England and so I am very biased against them (combined with annoyance as I feel they should be better being from England myself). Even if the 2+ movement is not changed, I just feel rather than have an extra spy (which seems odd - sure - MI5 and MI6 but other nations have just as important and famous spy networks - America? China? Russia?) it should receive a bonus that would better suit the trait (which alludes directly to the British Empire). How about a minor monetary bonus concerning the sea? Would be ideal with the new trade mechanics.

Again, maybe just my (abysmally) bad run with Sweden. I think I was unfortunate to have Greece and Siam in my game and regardless of all my expensive gifts in the form of GP it seemed to have little effect, compared to the effect those individuals could have had in the long run.

India's negative is justified by the fact it would otherwise be ABSURDLY overpowered - it would essentially just be 'Half unhappiness from population.' Instead, it should be perhaps a quarter unhappiness and an update to compensate for the fact Culture is now being changed and tall empire are not as advantageous as they used to be.

Seancolorado, of course people are going to argue some should not be changed. But it doesn't mean they should remain unchanged. Discussion concerning which existing civs should be changed is very valid with a new expansion coming up.

 

[Liegence]

Sweden's trait is far from horrible. I think you may be doing it wrong; it's definitely a trait that is much better in practice than it looks.

I would actually like to see Austria's trait become something that any civ could do to a limited degree.

India definitely needs an adjustement. Songhai could use a buff. Germany could use a slight buff.

 

[Petiscator]

QuipCloud: I see what you mean, and I agree to an extent, perhaps England could get a bonus regarding trade routes instead of the spy - even though it is quite useful, it isn't as fitting as it could be. Greece and Siam are usually CS troubles, though. What I like the most about Sweden is that they are very flexible: you can go warmonger for some GPs, pursue a religious game for Prophets or be best friends with everybody for the % modifier

 

[ferretbacon]

While I think many UAs could stand with some minor tweaks (I've covered some of them in other posts), either because they need to be improved a bit or because they merely don't sync with my play style as much as I'd want them to, the most egregious UAs (i.e. the ones that really just suck) are:

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India
Why it needs to change: This one takes the cake. It makes India suited to only one play style (small and tall) and just seems very generic. I say generic because it never really involves the player in any way. It's just there. And it's one of the few (the only one?) that has a negative modifier attached. Furthermore, it seems slightly offensive to characterize India by population growth. Thousands upon thousands of years of history and... population growth is what we get.

How I'd change it: sure, okay, India has a big population. They're populace. Maybe fold that in more discretely if you're set on having that element. Here's my alternate UA:

Sacred Rivers: Cities adjacent to a river receive +1 faith and +10% growth.

There. Built in growth mechanic to actually help get that big population and a faith element (because how many religions came out of India?). Combine that faith with an early "Sacred Waters" pantheon belief, and you've got a growing, happy river populace. Much more in line with India historically and a little more engaging.

I justify it because India has many sacred rivers flowing through it: the Ganges, Yamuna, Sarasvati, Narmada, etc. Heck, Gandhi is standing on the banks of the Ganges (at least I think that's what it's supposed to be. Might be a beach in Brazil).

The Celts
Why it needs to change: I think this UA (and the one following it) were both conceived before Firaxis had a good handle on how powerful the religions in the game were. They were still being cautious with its application and of giving too much to the civilizations who had faith based UAs (further testament is the fact that the Pictish Warrior loses his ability to gain faith from kills). Honestly, the Celts and Byzantine UAs feel like two parts of what should be one UA, one that both guarantees you a religion and gives you an extra belief.

The problem with the Celt UA is just how weak it is. Very conditional. First, you must have a city directly next to a forest to get any bonus. Second, in order to get the bonus, you cannot improve the forest tile in any way. Third, you only get the extra faith if you have three adjacent forest tiles. For three, you only get +1 faith.

"But the Celts are guaranteed to found a pantheon first!" Okay, yeah, 99 times out of 100, they'll pick the first pantheon belief. So what? They definitely aren't guaranteed to found the first religion, which is much more important, in my opinion.

How I'd change it: I don't have a specific change for this one. It could be improved numerous ways. They could change it to where you can improve the forest tiles for one, because I'm sorry, but it's just slightly ironic to lose faith in a tile I build a camp to hunt deer in if my pantheon is Goddess of the Hunt. They could also change the forest tiles to produce culture instead of faith after you found a pantheon or religion. I don't know. Just something.

The Byzantines
Why it needs to change: Lastly, Theodora. Great UA really. Makes your religion very versatile. But what if, just what if, despite your best efforts, you fail to found a religion? Uh... well, there goes that UA.

How I'd change it: Give them some sort of backup effect. Maybe they get the full effect of whatever religion comes to dominate their capital if they fail to found their own. Or perhaps add in some sort of faith bonus (like the Celts) that virtually guarantees they'll be able to exercise their UA. Maybe they get to keep the effect of their pantheon no matter what (even if another religion dominates their cities).

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(Dis)honorable mentions: Germany. To a lesser degree, America and the Netherlands. I think the Netherlands is probably getting a buff this coming expansion anyway, sort of how England got one in G&Ks.

Fair enough explanations? Let me know what you think.

 

[Buccaneer]

India and Polynesia should change, the rest are fine.

 

[Tyrvos]

This is just opinion and I'm not expert in any of these teams at all, just my thoughts.

England: I can't agree with you on England. I play mostly naval teams and that bonus movement is great. It's like getting the wonder free and perk in the commerce tree. Then grab those and you have +4 movement. Naval Empire will be easy.

Celt: I never liked the UA, but i honestly don't know how they could change it, unless they just make that pictish warrior faith effect work for each unit. That would be op though, imo.

Sweden: I've honestly never been good with them, but I think that's just because they don't fit my play style yet. I just think they have a niche play style rather than being weak.

Songhai: I find that the AI sucks with them, but to me they seem pretty balanced.

I always felt India and Denmark to be the ones lacking, but that's just me.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

If the Byzantines must be changed, it should be this: Make it so the threshold of getting a pantheon does not increase when other civs get one. That way they always get to use their UA and it doesn't get overpowered.

 

[ferretbacon]

If the Byzantines must be changed, it should be this: Make it so the threshold of getting a pantheon does not increase when other civs get one. That way they always get to use their UA and it doesn't get overpowered.

That's a reasonable improvement. +1

 

[local_hero]

I actually like Indias UA, its something different from all the others. So I wouldnt mind if they kept the happiness part, but perhaps they could tweak it a bit like they did with England in G&K. Perhaps a faith generating bonus to the UA. I don't think they would be unbalanced if so, because I don't think that neither the War Elephant or Mughal fort are particularly strong.

But with that said, I do enjoy them. I probably wouldnt pick them in a MP game, but with the right conditions you can go wide with India successfully. You just have to focus on getting as much happiness as possible in the start so that you can rex somewhat. I had one game where I had about 30 cities. So while I agree that they are not strong, I think they are enjoyable in that they offer you to play the game differently.

A little tweak to the UA or make the Mughal fort redicilously cheap to build Mughal forts with neuschwanstein is nice.

Edit: To be clear, I too hope that India gets something in BNW. But I don't think they must scrap the whole UA and make a new one.

I think Denmark is a very weak civ and that they need a change. I've played with all civs at least once and Denmark is one of the few civ (if not the only) I've never played again.

 

[Dreadnought]

Most of them are fine. Songhai gives a rediculous amount of gold per city capture, and those free promotions help when attacking across rivers. England's is map dependent but strong. Sweden is really strong if you know what you're doing.

As for the Celts, I'd change it to allow you to build camps on the forests without negating the effect, but beyond that it serves it's purpose (guaranteed pantheon).

 

[codepoet]

Need to make one point:
The Unique Abilities should not be compared to eachother to determine whether they should be changed... they need to be considered with the UU and UB in context. People complain about England..
England: England is one of my favorite civs to play... the UA is useful, but I still do wicked things to the UI with the Longbowman and that extra spy is great.
India: India needs something. The UA is lackluster, but the whole set of uniques is really lackluster. Mughal Fort is nifty, but a Castle is pretty low on my list of necessary buildings. The Elephant is better than a chariot, but I rarely use chariots as is. If India does not have their UA tweaked they need their UU and/or UB buffed.
Polynesia: As I noted before this UA I simply do not like playing against. It's not overpowered so much as annoying. The Civ itself just doesn't work so I don't really play them either. The Moai Warrior is decent, but Warriors just don't factor much in my style of early game play... I'm busy trying to build something else asap. And the Moai Improvement... I rarely build it: Add culture to a tile instead of food or production? Meh. Long term it just does not pay off... military production suffers and ironically culture suffers long-term because you lose production (of buildings) capabilities too.
The Ottomans also need an adjustment.