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[GS] What do we know of the new science victory

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Victoria, Feb 1, 2019.

  1. Greasy Dave

    Greasy Dave Prince

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    This is the new feature I fear will be the most irritating. In the livestream the dev talks it up as big more dynamic and interesting. I think we'll find the opposite. MOre hoops to jump through, more boring.They had something similar in Civ BE..can't remember which victory but you had to set stuff up and then sit there and wait x turns. BORING as hell. You could jump through hoops and make the wait shorter but it was still just a tedious countdown. I can remember the forum was full of so many complaint posts about how dull it was and asking why they didn't just stop the game after building the contraption.
    One problem was the AI was completely incapable of competing with you. I don't think that will change with GS. I think that Dev actually worked on BE too can't remember his name)
    Tbh, I think they should have left the vanilla SV just moved the mars techs to the future tech. Short and simple.

    More complicated doens't make something more fun. It might. But it probably won't in this case going on previous form :(
     
  2. nauberry

    nauberry Chieftain

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    What can you do to stop someone from winning a science victory? It feels like when they launch the expedition, it's already game over for you, unless you completely annihilate them.
     
  3. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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  4. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    I believe it was the Contact Victory that you are thinking of. You had to do a couple projects first and then build the giant beacon and then activate it by spending a ton of energy and then wait like 20-30 turns for it to make contact with the aliens before winning. I was definitely one of those folks who thought "why make the player wait so long to win after activating the beacon?". It seemed pointless. Yeah, I feel like the new SV has the exact same flaw.
     
  5. Josephias

    Josephias King

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    Indeed, the SV has always a "race" whith few blocking possibilities. Problem with Civilization VI, by only having 3 mars colonization modules, is it was far too difficult to stop/block. In Civ I - Civ III, besides capitol crusth-destroying the Project, an early launched space ship would take more time to reach Alpha Centauri (less engines, etc..), so you could still launch a faster ship and win. In civ IV, the SV Project was resource-dependant, and you could stop it by avoiding resource extraction. In civ V, you had either to capture the SS parts or destroy the capitol too.

    Civ VI SV ended too early, IMHO, to avoid for potential counters, but the 50-turn voyage gives room for counter strategies. The SV player Will try to reduce these turns via laser pushes, but you can avoid this reduction by preventing resource acquisition (raid his aluminium mines for the space station and his power sources for the terrestial lasers), and at the same time push for a victory you can get in 50 turns (which is still a reasonable margin, being 1/10 of game time. If you are going for SV too, it becomes then a game of who can get the most pushes to the SS, of course with the early launcher getting an advantage, but open to "healthy" trampling/tripping competition in old Earth.
     
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  6. Greasy Dave

    Greasy Dave Prince

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    There are a number of options open to you. Use spies to trash the space port, industrial zone, knock out the governor and or raise partisans. OR use military strikes - I've never had to do this but I guess a nuke thrown onto the space port probably stops/ hinders production. So the player has options.

    I don't disagree with your second point if you're in a Multiplayer match. But the AI couldn't manage this in BE and I doubt it'll come anywhere close to doing so in GS. In my experience it's less about trying to slow down the AI and more about the AI trying to slow me down. In BE it was completely unable to make use of that 20-30 turn window to slow me down or sabotage my victory. So those turns were just boring.
     
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  7. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    I suspect one motivation for the change is it's another way to make sure the player can win. If you're not paying attention and an AI gets ahead of you on the space race, the game's still not over even if they launch a spaceship. Once the player launches one, yes, I suspect it'll be over except the hitting "End Turn". The AI is not meant to win this game. The player is.
     
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  8. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Somehow I can't help but feel that this does nothing to alleviate the fact that science victory seems more like a production victory than an actual science victory, nor does it address the tiresome "next turn and wait" syndrome of the existing science victory. :dunno:

    Somehow I had hoped for something more out of the box, like a different tech tree activating for all players once a player reach a certain tech point, maybe you could decide to focus science into special space research, or something else, so it was not just a question of producing this or that, and then waiting X number of turns.
     
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  9. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

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    Can the speed be scaled by actual year instead of turns?

    For example, if I launch the space project at a reasonable time, say T135 at standard speed, which is AD 500, there's 20 year per turn, can I get to the location at AD 560( T138)? Or I have to wait until I complete two light at maybe T140, and reach the destination at T155(AD 900)?

    It is ridiculous for spaceship at AD 500 being 20 times slower than that of AD 1900( At which time 1 year per turn) Why my spaceship flew 400 years with 2 lights, but only takes 50 years if I build it much later?
     
  10. Shorlin

    Shorlin Warlord

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    Are they re balancing culture victory? If not it will be so much quicker than science.
     
  11. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    That's an excellent and very insightful comment. We tend to forget that but yes, the single player game is designed around the player winning.

    The Science Victory is only a science victory in the sense that it is helpful to get to the techs first or at least not get to them much later than other players. If you have great science that allows you to get to the techs way before everyone else then you will have a great head start. But you are right that production is probably the most important part of the SV because even if you get to the techs super early, if your production sucks, it will take you too long to finish. So yes, I completely agree with you that the SV is more of a Production Victory, especially this new one. Ultimately, you want decent science to get to the techs in a reasonable amount of time but you really need awesome production in order to finish the projects quickly.

    Well, in order to make the SV a true Science Victory, why not just make it so that you win when you are the first to finish the entire tech tree including of course all the extra future era techs they added in GS? That would truly put the emphasis on science to win. And if you wanted some production, you could have a project that only unlocks at the end of the future era, and that can be rushed with Great Scientists. That way you would need a lot of science to finish the tech tree and some great scientists to rush the final project. The project could be "The Singularity", the idea of humans merging with artificial intelligence. That would be a great science victory!
     
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  12. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    Yes, I think so. It is implied in the new rock band mechanic. Presumably, they made the tourism requirements for a Culture Victory much higher so that you need to spam the rock bands and generate tourism through concerts in order to win now.
     
  13. Uberfrog

    Uberfrog Deity

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    This can’t really be considered any more ridiculous than it taking 20 years for a warrior to climb a hill. The passing of years in Civ has never meant anything, so while it’s silly that they’ve chosen to tie this new mechanic to a specific time frame, it really doesn’t make the game any more ridiculous in this regard than it already is.

    It would be even more ridiculous for this newly introduced space voyage to be over in three turns. What (limited) gameplay benefit it provides would be completely eradicated.
     
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  14. MrRadar

    MrRadar King

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    This new SV is almost a carbon copy of the Transcendence victory in BE: there you need 15 points in Harmony, 3 specific techs, and build the Mind Flower wonder which starts the countdown to victory which may be sped up by 1 point per turn by building a Mind Stem and/or Xeno Sanctuary (needs 1 Xenomass resource).

    It isn't of the most boring Contact victory type, because at least you can speed it up. But I think I would prefer something closer to the original Civ spaceship, with multiple spaceship parts, where the bigger the ship you built the better your final score was, also you could take risks and launch an incomplete ship.

    They could even make the probability of successful arrival never to be 100%, start at 60% for a ship with all the required modules and reach 99% max. Those future unrevealed techs, apart from enhancing GDR could also yield new modules that would improve the safety of the habitation, life support modules, engines, fuel cells. It could be a painful but interesting judgement call at which moment to launch your spaceship. But not many want to be frustrated by RNG explosion mid flight, I guess. And who wants now to build like 16 parts? Those newfangled shiny lasers made of freshly cut timber will be so in, I believe :)

    Anyway, does somebody know, what will become of Sagan, Korolev, Kwolek?
     
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  15. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    They equate turns to single years in the discussion as they appear to expect the global era to be single year based... They should just say turns, it would be much simpler. And no lets not discuss the year difference and launching a satellite in 100BC we know they mean turns.
    Apparently they have not changed, just speed up projects. @Giskler posted pics of Von Braun and Sagan
     
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  16. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    Speaking of an above post mentioning AI not being able to stop you, launching this ship should cause all AI's not currently allied with you to declare war on you. Perhaps not the most realistic, but does make it more interesting from a gameplay perspective.
     
  17. MrRadar

    MrRadar King

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    Or maybe they could build military lasers and target your ship. Instead of pushing your ship they would slowly chew through the hull and if they succeed to penetrate it before the journey is complete, the ship gets destroyed and you must launch a new one. There should be ways for you to defend and target those hostile lasers, ofc.
     
  18. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    Well, I can see a couple potential problems.

    1) If the AI does not actually attack you, merely declaring war does nothing. We've seen this before where the AI will declare war on you but be way too passive. So you sit there for 10 turns doing nothing and then the AI sues for peace. Under this scenario, your change would do nothing.

    2) If the AI does really attack you, then doesn't it essentially turn every game into a domination game? For one, if you know all the AIs will attack you when you get close to any victory, then you will be more likely to be more militaristic yourself and even destroy a few civs before you get close to a science or culture victory, to preemptively make sure they can't stop you. And if every civ really did put up a strong fight to stop you militarily, then it could make the end war almost impossible, giving you a big incentive to kill off as many civs earlier in the game as possible to make the final war easier. At that point, you might as well just finish a domination victory. At the very least, it will make every game finish militarily since you will always fight a big war at the end of the game. It basically makes a peaceful play impossible since even if you do pursue a peaceful victory, you would still need to fight a big war at the end of the game.

    3) It renders diplomacy meaningless. Why bother making friends if in the end, all of the civs automatically declare war on you when you are close to winning? Diplomacy should matter. Civs that hate you or have reason to declare war on you, can declare war on you. Civs that are close to their own victory might declare war on you, but civs that are hopelessly far beyond should not bother. And civs that love you should stay friendly and not declare war on you. If they are already your allies, they should stay loyal and even join you in any war against you. This would encourage the player to makes allies when they are pursuing a science victory to keep some AIs from attacking you when you are close to winning.

    So, I think some AIs that hate you, should declare war on you when you are close to a peaceful victory, but not all AIs automatically.

    The AI could try to stop you through non-military means like with spies, a world congress resolution or economic sanctions. I just think non-military ways to resist like the ones mentioned above should be equally important, especially in non-military victory conditions. Now, some AIs could declare war on you, yes, but not all of them. The game should not always devolve into the final battle of Armageddon.
     
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  19. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Actually, I think a spaceship build in 500 AD would be much slower than one built in 1900 AD
    (especially considering battleships, workers, airplanes, horses, etc. are also slower in 500 AD than 1900 AD)
     
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  20. Kibikus

    Kibikus Warlord

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    Or they can just go to ludicrous speed :crazyeye:
     
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