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What do you think about AI combat bonuses?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by stealth_nsk, Sep 8, 2016.

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What do you think about combat modifiers for difficulty levels?

Poll closed Oct 8, 2016.
  1. I like it. Combat should be challenging.

    32 vote(s)
    22.4%
  2. I'm ok with it.

    33 vote(s)
    23.1%
  3. I'm ok with them for highest/lowest difficulties, but most levels shouldn't have such modifiers.

    41 vote(s)
    28.7%
  4. I dislike it. Combat should be fair.

    37 vote(s)
    25.9%
  1. apocalypse105

    apocalypse105 Deity

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    I dont like combat bonusses that increase strenght i would rather give them extra promotions and more experience in combat..
     
  2. GoodSarmatian

    GoodSarmatian Jokerfied Western Male

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    I'm fine with it. The AI can't compete fairly with units, so it needs some kind of bonus.

    Compeltely disagree.
    Tons of units as an AI crutch might have been acceptable in Civ 4 because it could at least be countered with collateral damage, but 1UPT made it unbearable in Civ 5.
     
  3. Teproc

    Teproc King

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    I find people's belief in the possibility of a good military AI amusing. It's not happening, and this is not a bad idea : Deity AI was a joke because it was so easy to beat overwhelming numbers... if you don't want bonuses, play on Prince, there's nothing wrong with that. As for the idea that difficulty should be based on the AI's actual competence, that's just ridiculously ambitious and impossible with current technology, at least for a game as complex as Civ.
     
  4. spfun

    spfun King

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    The AI will have the combat bonus in addition to a large military production bonus.
     
  5. CaiusDrewart

    CaiusDrewart King

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    It's a good idea. Pretty much every veteran civ player has accepted that huge AI economic bonuses on high levels are a necessary evil. The game is more fun and more competitive when they're there. This is just a simple and needed extension of that idea.

    With 1UPT, the huge economic power of an Immortal or Deity AI just does not translate into military effectiveness. The AI literally can't use most of its units because only so many can fit on the front lines at once. The huge production capacity ends up wasted. And of course it cannot properly manage those units that are in fighting position.

    This makes the game way too easy. Domination victories are a cakewalk, at least relative to past Civ games, and even peaceful victories become easier as managing diplomacy is way less important (who cares if AIs attack you? You'll crush them.) Good players can routinely conquer AIs--even ones with equal or better tech--without losing a unit. That's obscene. Something had to change.

    Maybe you could try to crank up the economic bonuses even more, aiming for production and tech bonuses so absurd that even AI armies becoming threatening. But that would completely warp the peaceful aspects of the game.

    A good combat AI was never a realistic expectation (something that should have been considered when 1UPT was first implemented). After watching some Let's Plays I'm not even sure Civ VI's AI will be a step forward from Civ V's debacle. So this had to be done. It is the brute force way of making combat hard again, and it will work. Does it have downsides? Yeah. It's annoying that my units will always lose one-on-one battles with their AI equivalents. My UUs will probably only be evenly matched against AIs with regular units. That's all too bad. But it's the only way to make 1UPT challenging.
     
  6. Matthew.

    Matthew. Deity

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    Purely carpet of doom production boosts isn't enough. The AI needs to be able to trade units with the human player under relatively equal circumstances. A handful of composite bows mowing down wave after wave of AI military is rather poor design.

    Combat bonuses help AI survive that extra round of attacks or two to get into position to actually trade military.

    I don't know how it will be implemented in Civ 6, but as I said I've modded the game this way in 5 and it worked out smoothly. It doesn't feel cheap or broken, but actually more fair in a round-about way. The AI will actually kill off composites if you don't have them protected and you can't just mow everything down before it gets to you.
     
  7. Hail

    Hail Satan's minion

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    I think that is the path that should have been taken since civ5 (the inception of 1UpT). :goodjob:

    Firaxis can produce a competent AI if given enough resources and time, but they did not recieve them for financial reasons.

    AIs don't sell games. night-day cycles do sell! :goodjob:
     
  8. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    I'd rather they "cheat" by having units that are a bit better and a bit more of them, then cheat with just quality or just quantity
     
  9. dturtle1

    dturtle1 Prince

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    I get the argument for combat being fair, but if you want increase the difficulty, it should be in all aspects of the game, not just raw yields as an example. In Civ5 combat became tedious because assuming at least minimal parity, either in numbers of combat strength you just wouldn't lose.

    I remember getting jumped by the Zulu's with a typical invasion force and defending it with a archer(plus a spearmen and archer who came in late) purely because the terrain on the Zulu side of the city was rough, The City was already 10 Pop and i got in a few cheap shots, focus firing down the Catapults If the Zulus had actually marshalled a siege or attacked the 4 Pop City down the road on the plains, maybe he might have won something. Instead he crashed and burned and a Civ that is made for early war mongering couldnt pull it off. I new the Zulu's were there, i didnt care which is not exactly good

    Voted Yes, but within reason. I would like at least 3 difficulties with straight combat, but if you wanna be challenged by doing higher difficulties you should be challenged as a whole. If the A.I needs help to trouble you tactically(and it will have no doubt) then it needs its buffs. There is only so smart you can make an A.I, especially when you just dont have the resources to throw at it, such as a game like Civ. You won't get better A.I without longer turn times so you compromise and use a derived bonus. Every other side to the game gets bonuses on higher difficulties, why should combat be left out
     
  10. cazaderonus

    cazaderonus Actual Dad.

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    Beat the deity level of Ackens balance mod ? You go try it :lol:

    Simply making AIs able to move and fire, focusing on cities, rebalancing melee vs range a bit. And deity AI military is scary as hell.
     
  11. Fede1893

    Fede1893 Chieftain

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    I voted for dislike but I understand most of the hardcore users like to boost the AI through bonuses in order to have a harder challenge and giving some combat bonus to the AI might let the developers lower a bit the crazy bonuses the AI had on production in CiV.

    Personally I played against deity in Civ IV and V and beaten the AI but after winning once I realized fore me it was boring because you couldn't build wonders and spread religion not because of your skill but because of the AI bonuses so now I strongly prefer to lower the difficulty and play with weaker civs in difficult starting locations or with less powerful strategies rather then play against deity. For the real competitive challenge I will try to play multiplayer matches hoping that this time mp actually works!
     
  12. CaiusDrewart

    CaiusDrewart King

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    Yeah, nerfing range does go a long way towards making things harder.

    The easiest and most effective strategy in the current version of Civ V is to pick off 1-2 AI units a turn by focus firing with massed ranged units. The archers rack up promotions and never take any damage. In the original release of Civ V, a common strategy was to roll over the opposition with a handful of cavalry units, who could combine to crush a couple of units and then use their movement retreat to safety in the same turn.

    The common thread in these two strategies is that the player can concentrate firepower on attack and suffer no risk of counterattack. That's completely impossible with melee units. If melee units are made so strong that the player has no choice but to use them, the player can no longer use these tactics and has a lesser advantage over the AI.

    So a major unit balancing is a good first step. I think the AI also needs a flat combat bonus on top of that, though.
     
  13. dturtle1

    dturtle1 Prince

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    I'm sorry if Xcom2, a game that very much is built around Turn based tactical A.I relies on Combat bonuses(as well as economic) to provide a challenge what chance has Civ got that also does "a billion" other things as well in the same turn time. Xcom2 is widely regarded as at the cutting edge of turn based tactical A.I. This is not laziness, this is purely "Is the Juice worth the Squeeze?" Speaking both financially as well in regards system resources. You dont exactly have an endless supply of Cpu Cycles to devote to anything, far from it, there is always trade-offs.
    I dont understand about ranged not moving and shooting either(unmodded) i am sure that it does happen but i recently lost a spearmen to exactly that. The issues i found with Combat A.I was they didnt attack Cities as a group and they made silly movement/targeting decisions.
     
  14. ProMeTheus112

    ProMeTheus112 Warlord

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    Agree!
    I think I really like this combat bonus idea for the reasons you wrote.
     
  15. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    Actually it's rebalancing melee vs. range which made combat more complex not the AI :)
     
  16. Barathor

    Barathor Emperor

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    The AI gets straight combat bonuses now? Sweet! It's about damn time!

    I've wanted this in Civ5 and BE for a long time. The XP bonuses were a step in the right direction when introduced in BNW, but the AI still needed more (and you can only go so far with the XP bonuses). The AI needed more quality over just quantity, with units spread out over the map.

    Plus, the initial drill/shock bonuses in Civ5 were erratic in the hands of the AI and more like a bonus they only received "sometimes". It was better in BE with the straightforward combat boosts, but then their max levels were severely capped!

    I'm looking forward to Deity in Civ6.
     
  17. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    The way 1 upt and experience works, if the AI has more units, the human player has innately better units because they have more promotions.

    They seem to have weakened the promotions (no march for melee) and if they actually fix ranged units (they should be ~20 strength lower than melee units of the same level if they have range 2..ie Archers should have 5 strength, just like Slingers).. then the AI won't need much of a boost.

    However, the Human v. AI in war is much more lopsided than Human v. AI in peace.... so by giving the AI some "War only" bonuses they can make the AI roughly equally hard in both War and Peace (so you could win a Wonder race but lose a war.... almost impossible on CivV Deity for top players)
     
  18. blackcatatonic

    blackcatatonic Queen of Meme

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    Option 3 for me. I do actually really dislike it, but I can see that it's necessary to offer some level of challenge for the higher difficulties. In a perfect world the AI wouldn't need it, but we're not there yet.

    I do wish to distinguish, however, between simple combat bonuses and advantages that I would consider cheating - such as in Civ V where the AI is able to attack with and then move a unit it's just acquired, even if the unit spawns in a city which is already garrisoned; or the AI being able to 'force' the player to declare war or promise not to do so for a very long time, without the player having the same ability. The latter are features I absolutely abhor in the game and I would frankly rather the AI's units all had +10% HP than have to deal with them having hidden advantages.
     
  19. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    Huh ? Where was it officially shown the AI get a raw bonus against humans ?

    Voted against. It's unecessary if the AI already has extra promotion and extra production of units.

    If the problem is CB and XB mowing down AI units. Nerf the damn ranged damage instead.

    Edit: Nevermind I found where and it doesn't say how it will be for higher levels.
    If it remains in the low region maybe. Still don't like it.
     
  20. Lilykamen

    Lilykamen Chieftain

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    Is not like will be affecting me a lot, because I usually play in middle difficulty levels, but I think that is not that bad as idea.
    Of course, having a decent AI and not needing to give it bonuses would be way better, but we're not there yet.
     

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