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What do you think about AI combat bonuses?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by stealth_nsk, Sep 8, 2016.

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What do you think about combat modifiers for difficulty levels?

Poll closed Oct 8, 2016.
  1. I like it. Combat should be challenging.

    32 vote(s)
    22.4%
  2. I'm ok with it.

    33 vote(s)
    23.1%
  3. I'm ok with them for highest/lowest difficulties, but most levels shouldn't have such modifiers.

    41 vote(s)
    28.7%
  4. I dislike it. Combat should be fair.

    37 vote(s)
    25.9%
  1. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    human advantage is exacerbated by promotion ststem. bring back green-elite scale, its not an RPG.
    or why not to have something like military doctrines instead of individual promotions.

    about AI, it progresses really fast nowdays, maybe in civ7 it will revenge itself upon us bio-players for the decades of humiliation ;)
     
  2. Ebrim

    Ebrim Warlord

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    I think it's a great idea at higher and lower difficulty levels with a null modifier at the middle difficulty levels. This actually seems like a much better way to address AI weakness than crazy starting bonuses or other forms of "cheating" as it is militarily that most players abuse the AI which will with modifiers become slightly more difficult.

    I voted option 3, maybe should have voted option 1 but I do think there should be a default difficulty with no bonuses in the middle.
     
  3. Staler87

    Staler87 Warlord

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    I find the fourth option a bit amusing as it implies that combat is 'fair' the way we have it now...
     
  4. AntoineS

    AntoineS Chieftain

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    The most important thing to me that I don't see the AI do too much in the gameplays we've been shown and that worries me is Unit Upgrading. I mean it looks like the AI is fighting with warriors all the time even when it's the Renaissance era

    Maybe if the AI upgraded its units properly the challenge would be greater already
     
  5. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    The experience of me being long time tester of a deep complicated strategy game taught me to entirely abandon hopes for genuinely good AI until some next software/hardware revolution in technology.

    Reason: current games have no artificial intelligence at all. It is de facto metaphor or easy codename for pre-programmed spaghetti of weighed code lines that fire in order to create passable illusion of "player". There is no actual teaching or adapting AI in games, but huge number of lines of code typed by programmers; this code can be awful and can be d e c e n t e n o u g h (if programmers sit crazy amount of time on it and testers like me observe results of that programming for a long time, and report bugs).

    That's it. That's AI in video games. Unless some breakthrough happens (it should be a big one and companies should really brag about it) then prepare for upcoming years to have strategy games with at best passabld AI, because there is no way to create truly challenging AI (capable of creative manipulation of the insane amount of variables typical for big strategy games) using a bunch of code typed by few stressed guys on deadline.

    For me it's whatever now, it's up to firaxis to decide what bonuses AI needs and how bad it is. I just want to not be extraordinarily bad and capable of endangering me from time to time.

    Honestly I think subtle strength bonuses may be better than extreme production ones, because the former solution may feel more satisfying (fighting high quality enemy troops vs fighting huge spam of bad enemy troops).
     
  6. AvantInvader

    AvantInvader Chieftain

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    It sounds slightly extreme on paper (except when used in the extremes of difficulty), but I'd imagine in practice it might not feel so bad.
     
  7. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    Honestly to me it depends on what they already have. If they lose the free promotions from civ5 then its the same at higher difficulties as to what we already have.
     
  8. Biz_

    Biz_ Prince

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    combat bonuses are a bad idea, but 1UPT was an even worse idea (ai production bonuses don't result in more effective armies) so maybe 2 wrongs can make a right
     
  9. LDiCesare

    LDiCesare Deity

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    It looks like a logical way tofix ai issues raised by 1upt. Since the traditional production bonuses now provide no benefit in combat, they grant directly combat bonuses.
    I don't know how it would feel, however.
    I think this can create spearman vs. tank effect if done badly.
    It definitely feels cheap.
     
  10. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    I voted number 4.

    Combat should be challenging, but fair, assuming you are on the same tech level as your opponent.
    Assymetrical combat arising from a tech difference is an organic part of the game, it happens, both player inflicted onto an AI or the other way around.
    The only way I would ever be okay with AI getting innate combat bonuses on higher difficulties is if they don't get any Science/Culture/Faith bonuses.
     
  11. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Emperor

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    At first it sounds like a horrible idea but I think it's not as bad as it sounds, maybe even necessary.

    I think I prefer to fight tougher units instead of massive waves of drones which essentially cannot hurt me. Similar to RPGs. The higher the difficulty level, the tougher the enemies and the more you are forced to use every skill and ability at your disposal. It makes the game more tactical.
    I think in a 1UPT game, tougher units can have a similar effect on gameplay. BUT in return, PLEASE reduce the ridiculous unit spam on Deity. It was the main reason why I only played Immortal in CIV 5. I just couldn't stand the grind.
     
  12. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    Added some numbers from the livestream to the original post.
     
  13. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    If its +8 at deity on top of free promotions then im against it. If its +8 by itself maybe it can work....

    It also depend on whether or not carpets of units still exist.

    Not a fan. It wont change based on the poll anyway so well see at release how it is. It just cross the border of poor way to make a challenge for me if it is on top of already generous bonuses.
     
  14. spfun

    spfun King

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    The bonus will scale with later game units. A percentage increase per difficulty would make more sense, surely.
     
  15. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    No, the game has new combat system based on differences. It's flat bonus and it doesn't scale.
     
  16. cakes

    cakes Prince

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    surprised by how even the votes are

    anyway i don't think there's anything wrong with AI getting statistical advantage. we can pretend that the best challenge would be an advanced AI that thinks and behaves like a human but that doesn't mean the challenges presented by the current difficulty levels aren't "legit" in any way, just because you are playing the game differently than you would play it vs advanced AI or a human opponent. the difficulty isn't "artificial" is what i mean and it should be accepted as what it is, rather than what it isn't
     
  17. Windsor

    Windsor Flawless

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    Votes are both even and uneven. Option #1 #2 and #3 are variations of the same. From that point of view, yes to direct combat bonuses is clearly in the lead.
     
  18. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    Option 3 is mild variation of "dislike":

    1. It assumes there are enough difficulty levels to play the game without combat modifiers.

    2. It describes less modifiers than are currently in Civ6.
     
  19. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    I can't help but laugh at the people who get so worked up about how the devs have to make the AI stronger. People whining about unfair bonuses are being ridiculous. Designing a phenomenal AI is at best extremely difficult, time-consuming, and expensive (at worst impossible). By finding ways to balance the gameplay with bonuses for AI, the devs enable themselves to focus on the rest of the game. Given how difficult it already is to design fun and interesting games on short time deadlines, the thought of sacrificing half the game to possibly make marginal AI improvements is ridiculous.

    The fact of the matter is that AI bonuses work to increase game difficulty. People who can't get past it either can't handle the higher difficulty and so make excuses, are ideologues (for no good reason, it's only a game after all), or have no sense of priorities. This particular complaint is more ridiculous than usual, given that military combat is the area in which the AI are primarily and so clearly difficient, and thus they actually need a boost for things to even somewhat resemble "fair".
     
  20. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    Unless the problem is with ranged units efficiency. Then giving a bonus to the AI won't ever fix that problem.
     

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