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What do you think about AI combat bonuses?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by stealth_nsk, Sep 8, 2016.

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What do you think about combat modifiers for difficulty levels?

Poll closed Oct 8, 2016.
  1. I like it. Combat should be challenging.

    32 vote(s)
    22.4%
  2. I'm ok with it.

    33 vote(s)
    23.1%
  3. I'm ok with them for highest/lowest difficulties, but most levels shouldn't have such modifiers.

    41 vote(s)
    28.7%
  4. I dislike it. Combat should be fair.

    37 vote(s)
    25.9%
  1. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    Yes, neither do putting more resources in AI development.

    I really hope more efforts are put in balancing different unit types. From what I've seen the early combat should work well. We didn't see late-game combat, though.
     
  2. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    Indeed but my comment has more to do with the fact that I think human biggest advantage in combat is actually because of range units and so I'd like them to fix things in the right order. That means nerfing range to be a support unit rather than 90% of your damage output.

    Hmm from what I've seen the damage output of range units is still too high.
     
  3. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    I'm not denying that is an issue, but correcting that's not going to change the fact that the AI will basically never reach human level, and giving their units a boost in combat is a solid method of manipulating the game to make it more difficult in an area in which the AI particularly struggles.
     
  4. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    Oh yeah it will never be fair. Bonuses are necessary somewhere.
    Just that if you nerf range units it already plays a lot more into AI hands in civ5 since they use a lot of melee units.

    As long as a range units takes 4ish shot to kill a melee of the same era, range will reign supreme because of the potential focus fire.

    I am far from convinced we won't have a redo of the mostly range army to beat the AI. So far in those videos it seemed to be the same story. I just want that to be fixed first and then bonus to be given.

    At least afaik we no longer have the ridiculous logistics promotion.
     
  5. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    Vox Populi did both ranged combat rebalance and a lot of AI improvements. Still Deity players of Civ5 manage to beat Vox Populi on Deity. I understand what it improved the AI odds, but the difference doesn't seem to be that critical as it looks at the first sight.

    It's different game, we have to wait and see. So far I didn't see ranged unit dominance in let's plays.
     
  6. Ebrim

    Ebrim Warlord

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    It's not going to happen but I'd actually prefer if the range of all ranged units was one except for artillery-types. Not only would this feel more correct it would probably help the AI.
     
  7. Lucius_

    Lucius_ King

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    I voted that I'm ok with it, but would have said I like it if I knew more details. In CiV, the units already start with promotions, so this is no different. If this lessens the AI's production bonuses, then I'm all for it. I'd rather the AI have less, more powerful units and actually have an opportunity to build wonders without a massive tech lead. Very tired of AI's building things like Notre Dame in 10 turns. If you aren't 10-20 turns ahead on tech, forget about certain wonders.
     
  8. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    Vox Populi is a totally different game so I find the comparison difficult. Last time I played it around March I mostly won standard deity domination through Artillery. I also had no idea what I was doing most of the time.

    I would need a bit more context. Were these players winning domination ? against similar army ? larger armies ? same tech levels ? what kind of army mix was used ?
     
  9. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    It's not about "fairness", it's about what bonuses make the game feel fun and what bonuses don't. Carpets of Doom, while annoying at times, can actually give you a feeling of doing a good job when you're re-positioning your units, getting wounded units out of the way, etc. while playing against an overwhelming force. If ranged units weren't as op that would actually be rather fun gameplay.

    Aside from the question of whether such combat bonuses would even be necessary if op ranged units and promotions were absent the real question is whether overpowered units would still allow players to be active, or whether the whole thing would then play out in a very stale way. If my units are weaker, then by default my fear is that I'll be sitting around, fortifying soldiers while slowly but surely sniping the opposing units, because my frontline soldiers just wouldn't survive being used actively.

    It sounds like what we may end up with is basically the same gameplay as playing against carpet of doom... just a LOT slower if it's not done right.
     
  10. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    Also worth noting that Civ5 deity domination is far from easy without a technological superiority or ranged OP promotions. Almost every strategy involve getting a tech superiority and then use that to beat the first AIs and then use the overpromoted same units to finish the last AIs.

    One of the main reason though is OP city bombardment/garrison one shotting your units if you're at the same tech level...
     
  11. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    Of course not. I agree, Vox Populi is a different game. I'm just saying rebalancing ranged units and fixing obvious AI mistakes definitely wasn't enough to make the game good.

    These are great arguments, actually. But there are 2 problems with skill vs. number challenge:
    1. Not everyone have fun from it.
    2. Having too many units with 1UPT is just ugly.

    What I really like in Civ6 approach is the number of modifiers you could clearly see, calculate and take into account. Yes, AI will probably have +8 on Deity. But Swordsman line of units has +10 against Spearman line of units, for example, so if you do the tactics right and focus your fire, you could overcome those AI bonuses.

    Of course, that's just some observations from let's plays and for the first half of the game. We have yet to see how it will work in the end.
     
  12. shaglio

    shaglio The Prince of Dorkness

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    I don't mind it. I think it's a nice simple way to make the lower difficulties easier and the higher difficulties harder without having to resort to bonus Settler/Builder/Units and/or free techs . . . Unless they still have those.

    In Civ 5, on higher difficulties, it was impossible to build the Great Library because the AI started with Pottery and could research Writing from the start. That sounds like poor game design to virtually remove options from the player like that.

    On a side note, I don't think I've ever seen a poll here that had all options so evenly chosen!
     
  13. isau

    isau Deity

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    I think had they not changed the Domination victory conditions to "conquer everyone's capitals" that the game would be FAR more competitive. The AI in Civ 4 was good in part because it didn't actually have to mount super effective wars. It just had to be effective enough to take over huge land masses.

    The problem with Civ V (and now possibly VI) is that the revised Domination Victory requires to defend just your capital. Do that and the AI can literally never win. Whereas before, if an AI chasing Domination victory was grabbing tiles all over you HAD to come of turtling and engage them. The old Domination victory was far superior to the revised one and removed a huge amount of conflict from the game. Ironically, it was changed in the name of making sure Domination meant battles were fought.. instead it resulted in only a very spots in the world that mattered, devalued satellite cities and tile grabbing, and put the AI in an impossible position that necessitates bonuses for its troops. Whereas if Dom victory was all about tile grabs and defending them, with everyone else trying to invade and stop you, it would be a whole different situation.

    TLDR part of what made Civ V combat so easy was how hyper localized it was, requiring an aggressor to drag tons of troops one single location. In previous games, it meant conflict everywhere all of the time, because whether it was the capital or a satellite city it meant tiles grabbed and movement toward Domination victory.
     
  14. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    Edited the original post as there seem to be only 6 difficulty levels at the moment.
     

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