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What do you think of mixing tradition and progress ?

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by SuperNoobCamper, Sep 4, 2017.

  1. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper King

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    Hello.
    I have been expirementing with this strategy for a while and i really like to hear your opinions about it.
    Tradition opener first followed by completing the progress tree then getting back to tradition and completing it before industrial era.
    It worked well for me in three successive games.
    i get early bonuses of progress and playing wide and developing a tall capital in late medival and renaissance makes it a good capital in industrial and modern era.
    I really find artistry, fealty and state craft not as good as either of progress or tradition.
    What do you think of it ?
     
  2. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I don't think it's a good idea to pick Ancient policies in Medieval. Most bonuses you get there are for things that you don't need anymore (free settler, free worker), that gives very little compared to your current output (+1 engineer slot in capital), and the good stuff is in the finisher, that you are actually delaying one era. I don't think you get more this way than picking any of the medieval policy trees.
    Also, each tree is devoted to settling model, so if your model is very tradition like, you won't get much from Progress.

    It could be a good idea to mix ancient policies before medieval, though, specially Authority, if you don't care too much about the related wonders.
     
  3. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper King

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    Tradition seemed pretty effective when i adopt it in medival era.
    I do it actually for the scaler which gives considerable boosts for capital growth and great persons.
    I think progress is far better -at least it suits my playstyle founding 5 cities as early as possible then building essential buildings in them thrn wage a war to capture the nearest capital by the 100th turn-.

    I find artistry pretty useful when combined with tradition but i usually complete progress which is not as useful with artistry.
    Statecraft and authority are a bit underwhelming as i usually ally with 4 CS max. And i'm not interested in multiple wars and conquereing the world i wage the first war to create some space and play defensively for the rest of the game to win either SV or CV.
     
  4. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    Imperialism is the world conquest tree, not Authority. I think you are vastly underestimating the usefulness of Authority for early expansion. It basically allows you to develop a large empire early on with little consequence. If your civ has early game bonuses, that's where Authority shines. Even if I plan to play peacefully, Authority continues to reap benefits throughout the entire game for any remotely wide empire.

    As for the OP, if you're looking to directly buff your cities even further after Progress, you might as well just go Fealty. There's absolutely no reason to go into Tradition after Progress. Fealty provides far more effective output for almost every yield. While it's true that the % growth increase eventually outscales the 5 food you gain from the scaler, the additional population is just used on production and gold that Fealty provides anyway both directly (scaler which should be nerfed tbh and pasture prod) and indirectly (15% from wltkd). Even the culture and border growth increases are more effective at that point in the game.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
  5. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Only applies true at the increasing slope til the highest point of the bell curve of population growth. It's % growth increase not % food increase. Growth is food subtracted after everyone eats. Eventually +5 Food sounds better than +25% Growth when your city are barely surviving on +0.24 food because of your high pop.
     
    Owlbebach and Ziad like this.
  6. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    Of course! It's especially true if you use specialists. I was just referring to the period in which the decision would be relevant (Classical - Medieval - Renaissance), where population growth is still on the rise.
     
  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Use Authority instead. You don't need to commit 100% to war if you don't want to. But your style fits more with Authority, IMO. The only thing you need to change here is that you need to build units first, kill lots of barbarians (not camps), get the policy that rewards you for increasing your cities and then you can go on your settling spree. Conquer one civ or two, and calm down.

    If you want to settle ASAP, best option is Progress, but it hurts early warfare as you'll be lacking units. You probably should wait till late Classical before going for any capital.

    Tall is not fit for quick expasion.

    Any of the Medieval policies can help you with science and culture victories. Artistry is more suited to cultural victory. Statecraft helps with world congress and maintaining CS alliances which is more suited to diplomatic victory, but can be used for any victory, actually. At the very least you can prevent other civs enacting anything that hurts you. But you might like Fealty most. It's a bit overpowered right now and a nerf is on the way. Don't think you need to found a religion to ripe benefits. It's a whole +5 production + 8 food (+10%extra food) +3 science +5 gold +1 happiness in every city, and you are rewarded culture and culture for not working on specialists, and avoid religious issues.
    Compare this with Tradition (bonuses excluding capital): +30% growth (not food), +6 culture +2 science, +15%great person, even if you can build everything in a reasonable time, the total yields are much lower. Your great people get a bonus for expending, but the reward doesn't scale on number of cities, as Fealty does.

    The problem with tradition is that the bonuses to capital and empire are diluted if you go too wide. You can start tradition and go wide... later, when you have fealty or industrialism to back up your expansion.
     
  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Right now I think going progress->fealty should seriously outperform progress-tradition

    I don't hate the idea of mixing policy trees when a special reason is there, but I'm not convinced on this one. It is nice to get food in your capital along with progress' opener, but the opportunity cost seems a little high
     
  9. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper King

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    the only advantage i think artistry has over tradition is the massive tourism boost you get from golden ages if you want a fast CV otherwise tradition boost to capital GP generation, food and growth combined with UA of china *used to be crazy 75% growth boost* or Spain outperforms fealty easily.
     
  10. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    With new Medieval policies being so strong i can't imagine taking any Ancient policy tree instead. There's just no maths behind this decision.
     
  11. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Perhaps you are forgetting to factor the scaler benefits for the medieval trees?

    Also how many cities are you putting down?
     
  12. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    This doesn't make sense. Spain and China are expansionist civs. Playing them small with tradition does not make full use of their unique abilities.

    It's funny you quote those civs as Fealty almost feels specifically designed for them. An example is WLTKD production and border growth bonuses when you have them up almost 100% at some point with China in all cities.
     
  13. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper King

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    Yes playing a pacifist game as spain is a total waste of a potential advantage over the competitors but at least in my experience a tall capital with few self founded cities can conquer other wide playing civs while they are still trying to develop an army.
    Tall china is much more effective than wide china.
    I was pretty surprised when i won a CV with only 4 cities without capturing any enemy city as china.
     
  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I used to play China as tradition->progress, but that was at a time when Fealty was Piety and it was much, much weaker. Maybe you are forgetting that Fealty gives 1 food, hammer and gold for each policy? When considering this its a crazy strong tree, and the finishing bonus is also extremely strong

    Likewise artistry gives 1 science and 1 culture in all cities, per policy, which gives it a big edge over tradition for most empires
     
  15. Paramecium

    Paramecium Prince

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    This. Before the rework of the medieval trees, I thought, that besides Aesthetics with Tradition, that Progress and Tradition were the best combination for a purely Science Victory, because the medieval trees gave not that much science (with Korea you should pick Aesthetics/Artistry anyway to get the most out of you UA in my opinion)
     

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