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What do you think of my Civ 7 Civ and Leader Picks?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by LiamX, Mar 18, 2018.

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What do you think?

  1. I love it!

    12.0%
  2. Its ok I guess

    68.0%
  3. Bah! I hate it!!

    20.0%
  1. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Prince

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    Yeah correctly. Indra Gandhi, bearing the same surname, will be a much more legitimate "Gandhi" to appear on the stage as a leader.
     
  2. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    She appeared in Civ2, but I think she's too controversial for a second appearance. There are other possible female Indian leader choices.

    My thoughts on these leader choices:

    New World
    1. America: Thomas Jefferson (I'm ok with Jefferson, but I feel like Abraham Lincoln should make a reappearance eventually)
    2. Aztec: Ahuitzotl (ditch the Montys? I'm up for it)
    3. Maya: Pacal the Great (It depends on who will be the Mayan leader in Civ6, if someone else, maybe I'll accept him appearing again, but if it's Pacal again, I would like a different Mayan ruler)
    4. Brazil: Dom Pedro I (I don't think Brazil should always be in the vanilla, they really only have one non-controversial leader choice)
    5. Inca: Manco Capac (depends on who's the Incan leader in Civ6, but I think Manco Capac is too legendary for my tastes)
    Europe

    6. Russia: Ivan the Terrible (some might dislike him, but I'm ok with this choice, they would probably call him Ivan IV)
    7. Great Britain: Victoria (I'm not up for Victoria again, I want an English ruler who wielded more power)
    8. France: Henry IV (I'm good with this choice)
    9. Germany: Frederick the Great (Good)
    10. Spain: Philip II (him again?, Spain seems to be lacking in notable monarches)
    Classical Civs

    11. Rome: Julius Caesar (I'm fine with him appearing since his last one was in Civ4, Civ6's Trajan reminds me of him though)
    12. Greece: Alexander the Great (Can't we take a break from Alexander appearing again?)
    13. Egypt: Thutmose III (He's a decent choice, I wouldn't mind his aunt Hatshepsut appearing instead)
    East Asia

    14. China: Tang Taizong (He's one of the greatest Chinese emperors, so I approve of this choice)
    15. Japan: Ashikaga Yoshimitsu (He seems ok, though his English wiki entry needs more work, I would like Tokugawa to return eventually)
    16. Vietnam: Trung Trac (I think Vietnam has a lot of better leader choices then someone who was basically "Boudicca" in her country's history)
    17. Majapahit: Hayam Wuruk (another leader whose English wiki entry needs more info, I'm fine with him)
    18. India: Akbar the Great (a good leader choice, but would Indians be ok with him, since he was Muslim....)
    Middle East

    19. Sumeria: Gilgamesh (No more legendary Gilgamesh, I rather have Assyria or Babylon appear instead).
    20. Persia: Cyrus (Why Cyrus again? I wish Firaxis would stop fixating on Achaemenid Persia, How about the Sassanids?)
    21. Arabia: Harun-Al Rashid (I think there are a couple of other choices we can put here, my personal pick is Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan)
    Africa

    22. Ashanti - Osei Tutu I (good choice)
    23. Benin: Queen Idia (fine, Ewuare is also a good leader pick for Benin)
    24: Ethiopia: Haile Selassie I (depends on who's the Ethiopian leader in Civ6, we don't need to pick Haile Selassie again, how about someone from further back in time?)
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  3. LiamX

    LiamX Chieftain

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    The difference is that Trajan is one of the top picks of Rome. I'd put him 3rd behind Augustus and Julius. No, Byzantine leaders don't count since Byzantine is a different civ so yeah, Trajan is a top pick. But yeah, since Julius and Augustus has already appeared in previous civ iterations, Trajan being next in line is very much justified.

    Wu Zetian on the other hand is a different story. Two of the universally greatest Chinese emperors: Tang Taizong and Han Wudi hasn't appeared in Civ yet. Not to mention several others: Yongle Emperor Kangxi Emperor, Wen of Sui, Liu Bang, Zhao Kuangyin, Xuanzong of Tang, Emperor Qianlong, Emperor Yongzheng all have better contributions to China than Mrs Wu. I think you need to go back to our previous post. My point with Wu is that China has too many great Emperors to choose from over her. If you think her pick was justified, the only possible reason is, what Zaarin said, her gender and nothing else.

    Also, try looking at male Chinese emperor pictures in google. You'd be surprised how different their clothes are.
     
  4. LiamX

    LiamX Chieftain

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    I'm glad you like most of my pick. I'm hoping we'll see the Mayans in civ 6. Heck, I hope to see them everytime. I also want Inca to be present as well though it's highly unlikely because we have the Mapuches. But the more mesoamericans, the better, right? We should have them all! Aztecs, Mayans, Incas, Mapuches.
     
  5. LiamX

    LiamX Chieftain

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    It's not that he's obscure, it's that there are better picks. Toyotomi Hideyoshi is still one of the best picks even with opinions surrounding him. He's one of the three unifiers afterall. I'd put Yoshimutsu up there as well. Minamoto no Yoritomo, first shogun of the Kamakura period is a good pick. Takeda Shingen, while just a daimyo and did not lead all of Japan would have been an interesting choice. Not a good pick, I know, but I wouldn't mind.
     
  6. TahamiTsunami

    TahamiTsunami Prince

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    @LiamX I'd say that the Inca are still overwhelming likely to show up. It would be like if for some reason we had Scotland show up before England, I see the rival newbie civ (Mapuche) as being more of an indicator for the classic civ (Incas) arrival rather than a deterrent. I definitely support adding more Mesoamerican civs!

    Its an interesting list, I'll be sure to share my thoughts on it when I have some more time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
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  7. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    That's not actually what I or anyone else in this thread said except you. :rolleyes:

    I think the Inca are still inevitable, but they're actually South American, not Mesoamerican. ;) I'd like to think the Maya are inevitable as well, being far more important than the Aztec (they really ought to be a base game staple), but the New World doesn't seem to be much of a priority to Firaxis--no indigenous civilizations in the base game, Aztecs as day one DLC, and it took us until the first expansion to get a civ native to North or South America. :( Hopefully neither the Cree nor the Mapuche will be the sole representatives of their continent. The Cree might be (though I hope not), but I don't think the Mapuche will be.
     
  8. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Prince

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    As I have mentioned, pure "greatness" comes next, in my measurement. We are not holding a "greatness" contest so clustering all the great leaders in a package should not be the priority.
    Of coz I wont disapprove Taizong, but neither will I disapprove Wu.
    And I hope that you come into realization of this:
    Showing leader of another gender, rather than they purely being that gender, is also a showcase of another side of a said civilization.
    Opposite gender means different clothing, language usage, appearance, different fascinating background stories, etc.
    NOT ONLY JUST BECAUSE HE/SHE IS OF A CERTAIN GENDER.
    "choosing a certain leader purely due to the gender", is nonsense. A gender contains more staff behind the curtain.

    A civ already with a male/female gender has a higher priority to get their gender counterpart, to show off another side of their culture/history, although this is not compulsory.

    Miss Wu, or Mrs Lee. Wu was her surname, not her husband's. Her husband(s) was Mr. Lee(s).

    Since you mentioned, lets make a comparison between male and female royal fashion in ancient China, using some of your mentions of the great emperors.

    Lets keep Qin as the original model of comparison:
    Spoiler Qin :



    Spoiler Wu of Han/Han Wudi :




    Spoiler Wen of Sui/Sui Wen Di: :



    Spoiler Tang Tai Zong :



    Spoiler Youngle Di of Ming :



    We can clearly see that the male royal dress was 90% similar to Qin's style, roughly before Tang Dynasty (where Taizong was).
    And from Taizong onwards, the dress code became yellow gown with narrow sleeves, and a black hat/crown.
    Their private/less formal clothing maybe different and dynasty dependent, but the royal court dress,
    (especially the coronation dress, which was the most iconic and lavish) was surely sharing a similar dress code.

    And for females of the same era:
    Spoiler Han (Wudi's era) :


    Using the same pic to illustrate.


    Spoiler Sui and Tang(Taizong and Wendi) :





    Btw, this Wu Zetian portrait was created in Ming dynasty, so it is following the Ming style and not an appropriate illustration of Tang dresscode. (You can see why its Ming style below).


    Spoiler Ming (Youngle's era) :





    Didn't add Yuan (Mongolian) and Qing (Manchurian) dynasty as they were not ruled by Han chinese, so their dress codes were drastically different and not appropriate for comparison.

    Thus which gender has a more distinct fashion evolution in ancient China?
    I will let the pictures argue for me. But I hope that you should go-google more yourself.

    It will be such a loss if they only include male leaders for China, losing the entire set of beautiful female fashion. Therefore, why not let Wu take the responsibility, when she was also a great ruler by her own right.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2018
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  9. chronoturner

    chronoturner Chieftain

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    So? Hojo Tokimune is equally as good as Minamoto no Yoritomo or Ashikage Yoshimitsu (I think this is him you're referring to?). Hojo Tokimune is a relatively not so controversial, rather positive representation of Japan, as a stalwart defender who promotes a certain type of cultural code in his people. Hideyoshi is controversial and in my opinion not a good representation of Japan and it's history in the long term (let's collect all my people's swords and fail to invade Korea, also leaving his child in charge who was rather easily overthrown essentially reducing his legacy a good bunch), and Yoshimitsu and Minamoto no Yoritomo are about equally as good as Hojo in my mind. Now, I wouldn't want him every time, but he is a fresh face in the light of the more obvious choices, and can be interesting to some who have never heard of him - allowing an opportunity to learn about a chapter in Japan's history that they hadn't read about before.

    If that makes sense to anybody, good job, because I feel like it got a bit rambley. But, oh well. :p
     
  10. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    Hideyoshi was terrible at leading the invasion of Korea. Stories of his fits of rage at the "long-sleeves" of Korea defeating his samurai are legion (to be fair, the samurai did well on land, losing only a few significant battles like Haengju). I don't think he was one of the better Japanese rulers but I guess he's at least well known. I wouldn't oppose having him in the game as a "villain" of sorts.

    Seondeok was a worthy Korean leader who helped make Gyeongju a center of science and mathematics. She led the Silla Golden Age, and later the unified Silla went on to become a most prosperous kingdom. Seondeok isn't mentioned by name in this BBC podcast, which concerns a ceramic tile from the later unified Silla period, but Korea's scientific reputation is, and Seondeok's astronomical focus is part of that. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sl6dy (Transcript here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/art...pisode-transcript-episode-49-korean-roof-tile )

    For Sumeria and the Maya you can easily pick cooler leaders. For Sumeria, the pious shepherd-king Gudea of Lagash and heroic Ur-Nammu come to mind. For the Maya, the ritualistic Lady Six Sky or Lady K'aabel, both successful warriors who held enormous power (Lady K'aabel outranked her kingly husband in military rank, as she was "Kaloomte" or "Supreme Warrior"). Or Yuk'noom the Great.

    I wouldn't mind Julius Caesar returning for Rome--he's the best known Roman by far and despite some controversies (the Gaulish near-genocide), he's arguably one of Rome's better rulers.

    For China, I prefer the scientific-minded conqueror Kangxi of the Qin Dynasty, China's longest-serving monarch (and no, he's not controversial among Chinese for being half-Manchu).

    More Native Americans would be nice. The Iroquois are particularly missed, though I guess they don't need to be in the base game per se.

    I like Thutmoses III for Egypt a lot but feel Hatshepsut would be a more interesting pick. Especially more interesting than overplayed Cleopatra.

    Re: England, Elizabeth was not necessarily the best English ruler but certainly was among the best in leading it through cultural and religious change. Her overseas ventures were mostly failures and she had notable weakness for favorites (those overindulgent taxes, she later admitted, were a bad idea). But she's also among the most iconic rulers--who can forget her speech mocking Spain and the Duke of Parma as the Armada went to England? Personally, were gender not part of the equation I would prefer Henry V (who notably had a fleet larger than the Spanish Armada--many don't know this since Agincourt and Shakespeare cloud people's memory of Henry).

    Speaking of Henry, I like Henry IV for France--a worthy leader indeed (and admired by Macron). What's fascinating is that he and CdM were both alive during that tumultuous time in French history. I do think Cardinal Richelieu would be my personal favorite pick though--the iconic Red Eminence was a mighty prime minister, and the fact that he was also a cardinal is awesome flavor.

    I do like the Ashanti inclusion but I feel the OP is kinda missing some more dark horse leaders and civs, like Maori or Goths.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2018
  11. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    Zaarin already corrected you, but Mesoamerica doesn't apply to the Incas or Mapuches. I don't think the Mapuche has really taken the Incan game niche. No mountain/hill farming, no vast road system. More focus on resistance towards a colonial power. The Inca in Civ aren't usually portrayed as good resisters of colonial powers.

    The Gaulish people were nearly genocided by the Romans? I thought some survived and assimilated into Roman culture? It wouldn't surprise me if the Gauls were heavily depopulated because of conflict with the Romans. Any resistance towards the Romans was usually crushed brutally.
     
  12. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    Literal genocide might be stretching things a bit--Caesar was ruthless but efficient, and it's worth recalling that some Gaulish tribes were allied with Rome--but "cultural genocide" would certainly be fair. The Gauls seem to have been thoroughly Romanized within just a couple generations. Rome's wars against Carthage, Corinth, and Iudaea were much bloodier--while the Romans are generally remembered for their liberal-minded conquests, when their ire was raised they could in fact be vindictive and petty.
     
  13. awesome

    awesome Meme Lord

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    Fashion isnt exactly the best thing to argue for a civilization leaderhead. It makes sense to say, "this leader doesn't match period dress," but who cares about fashion when deciding who should be the leader?
     
  14. earlc

    earlc Warlord

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    There's definitely a largest territory theme going on here, but there are some good choices in there too. I only want to comment on a few:
    13. Egypt: Thutmose III
    He's an 'underrated' leader (though anyone who isn't king tut, cleo or nefertiti is pretty unknown among the general population). The whole thing with Hatshepsut is a kind of interesting story that hasn't widely been told. Hatshepsut should make another appearance eventually though, she's only been in the main series once (behind Cleo's 3 appearances).

    21. Arabia: Harun-Al Rashid
    Eh, one appearance in the series up through 7 might be enough. Beyond the legends he isn't reported to have been a particularly good leader, and the Arabian golden age began its decline during his rule.

    22. Ashanti - Osei Tutu I
    I don't know much about their handful of leaders, but I love the idea of Ashanti being base game.

    23. Benin: Queen Idia
    Benin is also cool, and I love the idea of having a black female leader base-game, though don't know enough about Idia to say she's necessarily the one. Anna Nzingaa as leader of Angola maybe? I don't know.

    24: Ethiopia: Haile Selassie I
    Interesting to be sure, but I'd certainly see Zara Yaqob return before Selassie. Selassie is just a tick too recent, which also makes controversies more raw. For a new face, maybe Menelik II.

    1. America: Thomas Jefferson
    All men are created equal, yet he owned, profited from, and uh, exploited some of his slaves. I mean no one from that time period is teflon, but for a new face I perennially recommend Ben Franklin.

    It's not the most important thing to consider, but interesting and appealing visuals certainly matter.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
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  15. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Prince

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    Please don't mis-interpret me. Leader representativeness of different sides of a civilization is what I am talking abt. Fashion( more precisely, dressing of the leader) is just a part of it. It will surely be dull if every leader of a certain civ appears to look the same. Choosing a leader with a more distinct image (especially when there is already another leader representing the same civ in the game), will be thus important to give a different feeling.

    And what I actually want to emphasize is that showing different elements of a civ will be one of the key for choosing a (or an alternative) leader. Genders and eras difference are the main consideration in this case, while fashion plays a part in it.

    Imagine seeing Ramsey, Thutmose III, Seti I with the same set of traditional pharaoh headcloths and only differed by the faces.... Will it not be more interesting when seeing the lavish female golden headdress, the blue war crown, Nefertiti's special tall crown, the upper and lower Egypt crown(s), etc?

    I think its part of the consideration to choose a leader as well. Say, you cant put Nefertiti's crown to anyone but Nefertiti (although they have put it to Hatshepsut before...). But the main reason is to create diversity for leaders and the civ they represent, rather than, following the fashion trend.
     
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  16. liv

    liv Emperor

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    I think visual consideration should factor in.
    Some people probably enjoy to play some favourites of theirs others enjoy embodying the spirit of the civ created. I am in the latter part since I do not think the game is really representing real history accurately or exactly nor should it.

    I really like the current set of rulers visually
    Tamar has become a favourite of mine just because of the look of her and the colours of her civ in general. I also like thinking of her as a bit of a fanatic.
    so now I am hoping that if there is a civ 7 she will be in it
     
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  17. LiamX

    LiamX Chieftain

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    @halfhalfharp

    how bias.
    So, we only saw this side of China:



    The only Chinese rulers who has appeared in Civ so far are Qin Shi Huang and Mao Zedong (if you exclude Wu Zetian). I get your point. Some Chinese rulers had the same dress-styles as the other. Taizong specifically had the same dress-style as the Yongle Emperor. But neither of them has appeared in Civ yet.
    So, the only dress-style you don't want to see are the ones who dressed the same way as Qin Shi Huang. The other emperors however fits your criteria of "showing the other side of China". If you're only gonna look at it in genders and not as individuals then that's sexist.
    Anyway, these dress-styles look different from the Qin emperor to me. (and they're better rulers/did more to China than Wu Zetian too)


    Taizong of Tang


    Kangxi Emperor


    Liu Bang of the Han Dynasty
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
  18. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Prince

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    Why are you always screaming of "sexist" when others are barely "sexist"? I wonder.
    I have never said that I don't want Taizong nor Kangxi in any of my post, if you did read.
    Just I won't disapprove Wu as well. I doesn't mean that "it must be Wu because of this criteria". Please don't accuse me of any ideas that I didn't give.
    Can you understand this logic? Or do I need to further explain?

    Yeah they surely look different. But my point to illustrate all those pictures, is that:
    the female fashion evolved more quickly and drastically, to a point that in every dynasty they had a notable difference in their appearance.

    Btw, fun fact:
    Liu Bang, the founder of Han Dynasty, didn't know nor care the rules of clothing. He once mistook the hat of an official as urine container (there was toilet system back in that time). It was until WuDi of Han, that the Han dynasty set up a stable rules for royal dressing, despite the fact that Qin did have one a century before.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
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  19. LiamX

    LiamX Chieftain

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    I'm not accusing you of anything. What I said was: "if one looks at clothing on the basis of genders, not individuals then that's sexist". Why be defensive?
    Also, the argument was "show the other side of China". You got it. Taizong, Liu Bang and Kangxi at least (I can name more) has different clothing than Qin Shi Huang. Representing leaders for different visuals would make sense. Representing them because they're a fashion icon as you seem to imply on this post doesn't. Most people won't care or even notice if they're China's Top Model or something
     
  20. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Prince

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    Yeah thats what I have always been saying, the idea of various visual representations of a civ, thats why having female leaders and all the varieties are essential, apart from sheer comparison of "greatness". Thankyou for finally finding that out.
    My point is never to hold a "China's next Top Model" or sth.
     
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