What do you think of the Leaders?

[Black Gate]

Himiko is cross checked by Chinese and Korean records (#), so it's more reasonable to recognize her existence. Only Japanese records claim that there was empress Jingu instead of her, so histrians are guessing Jingu is the embellish version of Himiko. I can say Himiko has actually clear historicity, and she is one of the early Japanese leader who built the national identity of the people of those islands.

It's not that she wasn't real, it's that her level of historicity is nearly at the same level as Gilgamesh. Was there an ancient Sumerian king called Gilgamesh? Yes, it seems like it. But every thing attributed to him has come later, the real man is little but a name at this point. Himiko's life is so poorly described by the Chinese sources (who don't have a clear idea about what was actually happening in Japan at the time) that she's not much more than a character with a name.

 

[gdr_willter]

It's not that she wasn't real, it's that her level of historicity is nearly at the same level as Gilgamesh. Was there an ancient Sumerian king called Gilgamesh? Yes, it seems like it. But every thing attributed to him has come later, the real man is little but a name at this point. Himiko's life is so poorly described by the Chinese sources (who don't have a clear idea about what was actually happening in Japan at the time) that she's not much more than a character with a name.

I can't agree with your point. Gilgamesh was only recorded by the Sumerian epic which basically has the purpose of romanticizing in later generations, like Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors in China, Dangun Wanggeom in Korea, Empress Jingu in Japan.

On the other hand, Himiko was recorded in the diplomatic papers of surrounding kingdoms. She was a regional player, not a mythological heroine.

 

[Black Gate]

I can't agree with your point. Gilgamesh was only recorded by the Sumerian epic which basically has the purpose of romanticizing in later generations, like Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors in China, Dangun Wanggeom in Korea, Empress Jingu in Japan.

On the other hand, Himiko was recorded in the diplomatic papers of surrounding kingdoms. She was a regional player, not a mythological heroine.

I'm not saying either are mythological. Gilgamesh is recorded in the Sumerian King List as a king of Uruk, is credited as the builder of its walls in another inscription, and has shown up in a few other places in Mesopotamia. He became associated with many legendary feats as a part of Sumerian folk tales, which at some point were collated as the Epic of Gilgamesh, but the real man did exist somewhere back in the mists of time. Himiko is similar - she shows up in an extremely small number of historical documents with little ascribed to her unless you decide that the stories made later (like the "records" of Empress Jingu in the Kojiki and Nihonshiki) as real.

 

[gdr_willter]

I'm not saying either are mythological. Gilgamesh is recorded in the Sumerian King List as a king of Uruk, is credited as the builder of its walls in another inscription, and has shown up in a few other places in Mesopotamia. He became associated with many legendary feats as a part of Sumerian folk tales, which at some point were collated as the Epic of Gilgamesh, but the real man did exist somewhere back in the mists of time. Himiko is similar - she shows up in an extremely small number of historical documents with little ascribed to her unless you decide that the stories made later (like the "records" of Empress Jingu in the Kojiki and Nihonshiki) as real.

To make it clear, I'm saying that her records are enough to catch the very first days of "Japanese identity" was formed. After the first (partial) unification of Yamatai of Himiko, the people of Japanese archipelago started to shared the identity. It led them to the shared ideas: they all are the children of Emperor, they must maintain the sole empire. These ideas are the important clue to understand the following Japanese history.

I think Yamatai or any other Antiquity Japan Civ maybe lose their chance to ride on Civ 7, because of its less important position in the early history of East Asia. In this case, the Yamatai Leader Himiko can be a good replacement of it, and she can show and represent the long living Japanese nation despite its early unimportance.

 

[queenpea]

Maybe this has been addressed already, but Machiavelli’s ability sounds super spammable unless there are some real hard limits on how many diplomatic actions are taken, given that he has increased influence/diplo mana.

Judging by his wig, and his time at the French court, Benjamin Franklin is sure to be OP…(over-powdered)…

 

[Zaarin]

The only one I’ve been genuinely disappointed with is Himiko and that’s because I prefer people of less dubious historicity.

Hōjō Masako was right there for the taking.

Gilgamesh was only recorded by the Sumerian epic which basically has the purpose of romanticizing in later generations

That's not correct. He's also attested in the Sumerian king list (albeit in the part of the list that is of dubious historicity), and, more significantly, one of his cylinder seals has been found and generally accepted as authentic. (Also, less relevant to the historicity of Gilgamesh, there is no Sumerian version of the epic attested, though there are Sumerian narrative accounts and shorter poems telling the same story in condensed form. There is also the Old Babylonian epic, but the most famous version of the Epic of Gilgamesh was compiled by the scribe Sin-leqi-unninni--probably an editor, not the author--in Babylon and was discovered in Ashurbanipal's library in Nineveh.)

 

[TheSpaceCowboy]

"Ibn Battuta doesn't count because he's not white."

That's the subtext. Anyone who doesn't see it now deliberately chooses to be blind.

My criteria is notability, not race, as evidenced by the fact that I gave Confucius the second highest ranking with an A+
Furthermore, I rated both Tecumseh and Hatshepsut higher than Augustus

Subtext aside, I was under the impression that Ibn Battuta was actually relatively famous in the West among people interested in history.

On the other hand, I had to search up who John Mandeville is, and from what I can tell this guy has zero pop history presence. Perhaps this “author” is more obscure than people think?

I feel like a Mandela Effect is gaslighting me.
I've never heard of Battuta before in my life, and I'm incredulous that so many Westerners are purporting to have learned about him, especially in public school.
John Manderville is one of the characters in The Folded World: A Dirge for Prester John by Catherynne M. Valente.
Phenomenal read, as is most of her works, at least in terms of it prose style and allusions, though her writing is weak in other respects

 

[Arcaian]

I feel like a Mandela Effect is gaslighting me.
I've never heard of Battuta before in my life, and I'm incredulous that so many Westerners are purporting to have learned about him, especially in public school.
John Manderville is one of the characters in The Folded World: A Dirge for Prester John by Catherynne M. Valente.
Phenomenal read, as is most of her works, at least in terms of it prose style and allusions, though her writing is weak in other respects

I can say that, at least as someone not from the US, that I don't now who Jogn Manderville is, I've never heard of The Folded World or Catherynne Valente, and I do know of Battuta with a decent degree of understanding - though not from school, which focused much more on local regional aspects of history (and WW1/2) than a different continent.

 

[Zaarin]

I can say that, at least as someone not from the US, that I don't now who Jogn Manderville is, I've never heard of The Folded World or Catherynne Valente, and I do know of Battuta with a decent degree of understanding - though not from school, which focused much more on local regional aspects of history (and WW1/2) than a different continent.

I do know who John Manderville is, but only because I'm a dual history/literature major. He's not someone I'd want to see as a civ leader. (Never heard of Catherynne Valente, myself; Wikipedia says she's a fiction writer, poet, and literary critic.)

 

[Xandinho]

I feel like a Mandela Effect is gaslighting me.
I've never heard of Battuta before in my life, and I'm incredulous that so many Westerners are purporting to have learned about him, especially in public school.
John Manderville is one of the characters in The Folded World: A Dirge for Prester John by Catherynne M. Valente.
Phenomenal read, as is most of her works, at least in terms of it prose style and allusions, though her writing is weak in other respects

I had never heard of John Mandeville, while I was already aware of Ibn Battuta's existence. And if both are obscure to the general public, I would much rather choose someone who actually existed and left an enormous contribution to Muslim history.

Giving up a unique and fascinating figure like Ibn Battuta for some random, "fantastic hero" of Western lore who never existed makes no sense to me. If we start to accept John Mandeville, we might as well accept King Arthur, Hercules, and the like.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Giving up a unique and fascinating figure like Ibn Battuta for some random, "fantastic hero" of Western lore who never existed makes no sense to me. If we start to accept John Mandeville, we might as well accept King Arthur, Hercules, and the like.

I mean one could argue the most well-known fictional person who traveled the most around the world is Santa Claus, so it might as well be him.

 

[Zaarin]

I mean one could argue the most well-known person fictional person who traveled the most around the world is Santa Claus, so it might as well be him.

I'll take St. Nicholas of Myra if he punches the other leader when he denounces them for their heresy.

 

[Evie]

I knew Mandeville, but then I'm an amateur student of the mytho-geography of the late medieval and early modern periods.

 

[TheSpaceCowboy]

I'll take St. Nicholas of Myra if he punches the other leader when he denounces them for their heresy.

I would take St. Nicholas of Myra as a leader in a heartbeat.
Two years ago I penned a Christmas carol about Saint Nicholas to the tune of "Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing":

Spoiler Saint Nicholas :

In the days of Diocletian
On a dark December night,
‘Gainst a good and godly Grecian
Caesar set all mortal might.

Milites and legionaries
Came to Myra bearing sword
Set against all adversaries
Who denied “Caesar is Lord.”

Behind bars and beaten badly,
The imprisoned priest in prayer,
Gave to God thanksgiving gladly
To his Savior’s suff’ring share.

On a much more mirthful Yuletide,
In the reign of Constantine,
To Nicaea, came from worldwide,
Bishops of the Byzantine.

And against all there assembled
Came there one, contrarious,
Claiming Christ God but resembled:
Arch-heretic Arius.

Nicholas, with righteous anger,
Towards that blasphemous besmirch,
In an act to ages clangor,
Smacked his face ‘fore all the Church!

On a later Christmas Eve night
When he’d whiskers white as snow,
News reached Nick of one poor plebe’s plight,
And his issues’ waxing woe,

How that dad in destitution,
Daughters dowries did deny,
And thus into prostitution
Planned the pauper them to ply.

So the saint, upon their rooftop,
When the chimney’s embers died,
Did three purses with gold filled drop
And their dowries thus supplied.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

I don’t think we touched on Ibn Battuta in school, but my own pre-college history courses were pretty awful. Endless colonization and Revolutionary War material and history stopped at the Civil War (the fact that it was called in my courses “The War Between the States” might tell you something about where I grew up). Only one course in 6th grade and later one course in 12th grade went to the present, or beyond America’s borders. If an explorer didn’t arrive in the New World between 1500 and 1700 we didn’t cover it.

Luckily, I had a library and loved it. Ibn Battuta became a favorite of mine.

 

[TheSpaceCowboy]

I don’t think we touched on Ibn Battuta in school, but my own pre-college history courses were pretty awful. Endless colonization and Revolutionary War material and history stopped at the Civil War (the fact that it was called in my courses “The War Between the States” might tell you something about where I grew up). Only one course in 6th grade and later one course in 12th grade went to the present, or beyond America’s borders. If an explorer didn’t arrive in the New World between 1500 and 1700 we didn’t cover it.

Luckily, I had a library and loved it. Ibn Battuta became a favorite of mine.

My college history all professors called it "The War of Northern Aggression"

 

[Zaarin]

My college history all professors called it "The War of Northern Aggression"

Any history professor who is that ignorant of history should have their degree revoked.

 

[Krikkit1]

I'll take St. Nicholas of Myra if he punches the other leader when he denounces them for their heresy.

Special ability: your Missionaries can do physical combat with opposing missionaries (not theological combat physical combat)

Or for all eras: Your ?nonsettler? civilian units can attack enemy civilian units (at an increased combat strength)

 

[untitledjuan]

Subtext aside, I was under the impression that Ibn Battuta was actually relatively famous in the West among people interested in history.

On the other hand, I had to search up who John Mandeville is, and from what I can tell this guy has zero pop history presence. Perhaps this “author” is more obscure than people think?

I knew who Ibn Battuta was since history class back in high school, almost a decade ago. I only just learned today who this guy Mandeville is.

 

[notNamed]

One more for Battuta's kid from a European.
Not in school but he comes up if you read up anything on the myth of King Moses being the wealthiest person in history as well as questioning the legitimacy of Marco Polo's accounts (guys were contemporaries, both contain passages that are so similar they can be interpreted as heresay from the west they claim to have learned in the east). No idea who J. Mandeville is.