What do you think of the Leaders?

I recall this comment from one of the devs on the Antiquity Age stream:
Andrew Frederiksen said:
I also wanna call out to our art team, you know, just the experience of being able to see the two leaders together, and as we go through, you'll get to see the reaction as Carl decides how he feels about Ashoka, or at least how his Augustus feels about Ashoka. We get to see that play out from both of them.
To me, this sounds like they're confident in sticking with the general stage play-esque structure of the diplomacy screen. But you never know, they're surely aware of how people feel about it, and if I'm not mistaken, it was something that wasn't popular with the visiting YouTubers and streamers either.
 
Anyone familiar with what the laws are around who they can include as leaders? I assume they are choosing people who they don't have to pay any royalties to use.
 
Eh, if i were to make a tier list simply based on how inspiring the choices were (of those revealed so far):

Himiko - D: Picking a mythological leader for a nation with such a wide history as Japan is... strange to say the least.

Trung Tac - A: She's been on my wishlist for years, a very inspiring choice. (on the same level as Civ 6's BaTrieu)


There is nothing mythical about Himiko. The dress she's wearing in-game is a fancified version of the Yayoi and Tumulus period upper class clothes as seen in the museum at Yoshinogari (Kyuushuu, the photo is on Wikipedia), and until we hear her talking she's up there as one of the better researched and historically-based leaders of the bunch. We've been over this a myriad times already. You guys are just conflating her with Amaterasu.

Contrast that with your "A" pick, which is Trung Trac, who is nothing but legends and modern nationalist state-building propaganda. She has no connection to Vietnamese culture or people, she is dressed in a pseudo-jumble of BS tourist drawings (like that tiara, which itself comes from painters who have never seen the OG headwear in their life) and the little historical text assigned to her is half just based on purely modern mythology surrounding her with only tiny concessions to history.
Had Himiko been done on the same level, she'd be called "Amaterasu Hime", look like the image below and her history section would be a "history behind the myth" nonsense about how Himiko is the founder of the imperial family line, how it's clear power was passed down through mother's line, etc. let your fantasy run wild as long as it's fueled by pop-culture, wishful thinking and Japanese nationalism regarding the imperial family line and shintoism.


/end rant
Please stop with the "Himiko is a myth" nonsense. :nono:
She's a person who's got more historical attestation to her than Trung Trac or Ba Trieu (both being random 2-line footnotes in the narrations of lives of successful generals) and the game, credit where it's due, actually uses the underlying material on her and the period she lived in to construct the character. Unlike the latter two. Even if the ever-critical spoilsport in me fully expects her to do a "Shakespear English" interpretation and jump head-first into Japan's own modern coloring of the person in question, especially when it comes to the narrative of supposed ancientness of modern shintou practices.
 
Anyone familiar with what the laws are around who they can include as leaders? I assume they are choosing people who they don't have to pay any royalties to use.
I assume they'd scrupulously avoid any leader whom they would have to pay to use the image of. Additionally, they've said before that they try to avoid leaders associated with current political controversies or movements. And more and more, they avoid using leaders from much past WW2.
 
OK, admittesly I'm not an huge expert in American History, but I'd have imagined, you got plenty of very interesting presidents to choose from, so I would have sticked to that. As long as the Leaders are real serious political figures (not just artists or scientist etc.), I could live with that, though.
I will say that Benjamin Franklin is probably one of the best, non-presidents, that you could have picked. Yes, he was a scientist, but he was also a diplomat to France and was one of the Founding Fathers, so I would still put him in the political category.

As far as Tecumseh goes, if you are going to pick the Shawnee, it might as well be him or his brother. :)
 
There is nothing mythical about Himiko. The dress she's wearing in-game is a fancified version of the Yayoi and Tumulus period upper class clothes as seen in the museum at Yoshinogari (Kyuushuu, the photo is on Wikipedia), and until we hear her talking she's up there as one of the better researched and historically-based leaders of the bunch. We've been over this a myriad times already. You guys are just conflating her with Amaterasu.
She's not mythical but her rule is absolutely semi-legendary. What little we know about her comes from what is essentially a footnote in the Book of Wei, where the Chinese authors tell us of a 2nd century civil war (no archaeological evidence of such a thing exists), place her kingdom in the middle of the Pacific, say she bewitched the populace into voting her ruler, and that her successor was a 13yo girl. Her traditional association with Empress Jingu comes with more legendary tales, like a 3 year gestation period for her son (although the Chinese said Himiko, in contrast to Jingu, had no children) and invasion of Korea. This whole period of Japanese history is a mess of contradictions, poor archaeological verification, pop culture and nationalist revisionism, and accusations of patriarchal sexism. It's disappointing as Japan has had much better attested leaders in the past, and if Firaxis wanted an early female leader Empress Suiko is there as a spreader of Buddhism and the "beginning" of recorded Japanese history.

She's a person who's got more historical attestation to her than Trung Trac or Ba Trieu (both being random 2-line footnotes in the narrations of lives of successful generals) and the game, credit where it's due, actually uses the underlying material on her and the period she lived in to construct the character. Unlike the latter two. Even if the ever-critical spoilsport in me fully expects her to do a "Shakespear English" interpretation and jump head-first into Japan's own modern coloring of the person in question, especially when it comes to the narrative of supposed ancientness of modern shintou practices.
I think it's a given that Himiko won't be speaking accurately. After all, Proto-Japanese is a reconstructed language and we can't even be sure she spoke it.

edit: to comment on the overall topic, I'm gravitating towards WR-Ashoka, Achaemenid Xerxes, Trung Trac, and Tecumseh. Ashoka seems like he'll be growing massive, happy cities that can lead to a strong industrial and economic base, very "builder" gameplay. Xerxes plays a little into that playstyle too and I suspect all the extra gold will make wide town-based empires stronger, but I guess it comes down to how useful trade routes turn out to be. Tecumseh pushes you to protect the city-states, something I've never really done, and Trung Trac is militaristic while still having enough peaceful bonuses to appeal to me.
 
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I've never been concerned about specific leader choices. I remember debates raging about almost every choice for VI, and lots of angst about over representation of women. But ultimately, in my opinion, pretty much any interesting historical figure is suitable, as long as they are designed well.

I'm happy with all the choices so far, I only hope that the early leaders we saw are not finished, since later ones have looked so much better.
 
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Tecumseh will be my first game I believe. Though it's possible Ben Franklin may sway me when we see what he's about. I want to play a peaceful game and make friends with city states, so it should work out.
Exactly the same for me! Tecumseh of the Greeks into the Normans into America 🇺🇸
 
I assume they'd scrupulously avoid any leader whom they would have to pay to use the image of. Additionally, they've said before that they try to avoid leaders associated with current political controversies or movements. And more and more, they avoid using leaders from much past WW2.
I wonder if this means we may get more modern nations, I assume Canada, Australia will make their reappearance as Modern civs at some stage.
 
Machiavelli - B

Notionally, the idea of an evil scheming leader is great and Machiavelli fits that mould. I have a few gripes though. 1) He appears to replace the token Greek leader and well, Alcibiades is RIGHT THERE for that EXACT ROLE. 2) Machiavelli himself wasn't a bad person. He was mostly a political philosopher who wrote theatises and practised critical thinking. Cesare Borgia, who was the inspiration for his magnum opus, Il Principe, is a more resilient choice for that role. The silver lining is that Machiavelli appears to be animated well and we finally (FINALLY) have an Italian leader in the game in their own right (CdM only counted so-so since she was always attached to France). Overall, a choice I can appreciate but one I'm not as excited by as I normally would have (and should have) been.
 
Machiavelli - B

Notionally, the idea of an evil scheming leader is great and Machiavelli fits that mould. I have a few gripes though. 1) He appears to replace the token Greek leader and well, Alcibiades is RIGHT THERE for that EXACT ROLE. 2) Machiavelli himself wasn't a bad person. He was mostly a political philosopher who wrote theatises and practised critical thinking. Cesare Borgia, who was the inspiration for his magnum opus, Il Principe, is a more resilient choice for that role. The silver lining is that Machiavelli appears to be animated well and we finally (FINALLY) have an Italian leader in the game in their own right (CdM only counted so-so since she was always attached to France). Overall, a choice I can appreciate but one I'm not as excited by as I normally would have (and should have) been.
Agree, that a 'Machiavellian' leader is a great concept, but there are better candidates than Mach himself.

And if having him means we don't get Alcibiades, Tallyrand or Walsingham in the game, I will be very sad.
 
lmfao i absolutely forgot about Enrico for a second. I stand to be corrected on that front, then.
 
Right now, I'm most excited for Hatshepsut, Confucius, and Benjamin. Secondarily, Tecumseh and want to learn more about Himiko and Amina.

I would have been most excited for Machiavelli but they dropped the ball for me there. But sometimes the more you care, the more pressure and expectation there is. :yeah: I'm sure i'll come around to something more reasonable eventually.

Overall, the list is a bit small atm so will be nice when we get more leaders and have the picture more fleshed out.
 
I'm liking the disconnect between leader and civ.

I think Napoleon might be the best leader for me. I have a general philosophy, gameplay wise, to FIGHT ALL THE TIME.

FOIGHTIN

Gameplay wise, profiting from being hated sounds great, because I surely will be.

I also think Napoleon was a fantastic organizer, tactician and strategist. Wins above replacement can't really be applied to leaders, but i doubt any historical leader could have replicated Napoleon.
 
I also think Napoleon was a fantastic organizer, tactician and strategist. Wins above replacement can't really be applied to leaders, but i doubt any historical leader could have replicated Napoleon.
Maybe not a great strategist, as Napoleon was often his worst enemy and saw his empire fall in just over a decade despite being blessed with a powerful fighting force and an ensemble cast of talented military commanders
 
Everybody looks like a teenager. Machiavelli specifically looks like a little child. Is this historically accurate, or this is a new trend in the gaming industry (I don't know, just asking)? It reminds me of Disney cartoons, like Pocahontas or whatever (sorry I dont like Disney). Ok I understand that games are meant for children and I am old, but I feel this is "over the roof" and breaks the atmosphere. Do you people, who are older, really enjoy this style? And again, no background. In civ 6 at least there was some messy fragment behind them.
 
Everybody looks like a teenager. Machiavelli specifically looks like a little child. Is this historically accurate, or this is a new trend in the gaming industry (I don't know, just asking)? It reminds me of Disney cartoons, like Pocahontas or whatever (sorry I dont like Disney). Ok I understand that games are meant for children and I am old, but I feel this is "over the roof" and breaks the atmosphere. Do you people, who are older, really enjoy this style? And again, no background. In civ 6 at least there was some messy fragment behind them.
Screenshot_20241103_001717_Chrome.jpg

Well I'm not sure that these guys look like teenagers...
 
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