What do you think of this article on the economic crisis?

Narz

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It makes sense to me on the surface but I don't really know jack about global economics so I thought I'd post it here to see if people agree or disagree with it & why.

http://www.bicusa.org/en/Article.11053.aspx

Herman Daly on debt and real wealth

25 February 2009

In a recent article, former World Bank economist Herman Daly explains that the current financial crisis is not, in fact, a liquidity crisis, but rather "a crisis of overgrowth of financial assets relative to growth of real wealth."

This article has been posted with the author's permission.

The Crisis: Debt and Real Wealth

By Herman E. Daly

The current financial debacle is really not a “liquidity” crisis as it is often euphemistically called. It is a crisis of overgrowth of financial assets relative to growth of real wealth—pretty much the opposite of too little liquidity. Financial assets have grown by a large multiple of the real economy—paper exchanging for paper is now 20 times greater than exchanges of paper for real commodities. It should be no surprise that the relative value of the vastly more abundant financial assets has fallen in terms of real assets. Real wealth is concrete; financial assets are abstractions—existing real wealth carries a lien on it in the amount of future debt. The value of present real wealth is no longer sufficient to serve as a lien to guarantee the exploding debt. Consequently the debt is being devalued in terms of existing wealth. No one any longer is eager to trade real present wealth for debt even at high interest rates. This is because the debt is worth much less, not because there is not enough money or credit, or because “banks are not lending to each other” as commentators often say.

Can the economy grow fast enough in real terms to redeem the massive increase in debt? In a word, no. As Frederick Soddy (1926 Nobel Laureate chemist and underground economist) pointed out long ago, “you cannot permanently pit an absurd human convention, such as the spontaneous increment of debt [compound interest] against the natural law of the spontaneous decrement of wealth [entropy]”. The population of “negative pigs” (debt) can grow without limit since it is merely a number; the population of “positive pigs” (real wealth) faces severe physical constraints. The dawning realization that Soddy’s common sense was right, even though no one publicly admits it, is what underlies the crisis. The problem is not too little liquidity, but too many negative pigs growing too fast relative to the limited number of positive pigs whose growth is constrained by their digestive tracts, their gestation period, and places to put pigpens. Also there are too many two‐legged Wall Street pigs, but that is another matter.

Growth in US real wealth is restrained by increasing scarcity of natural resources, both at the source end (oil depletion), and the sink end (absorptive capacity of the atmosphere for CO2). Further, spatial displacement of old stuff to make room for new stuff is increasingly costly as the world becomes more full, and increasing inequality of distribution of income prevents most people from buying much of the new stuff—except on credit (more debt). Marginal costs of growth now likely exceed marginal benefits, so that real physical growth makes us poorer, not richer (the cost of feeding and caring for the extra pigs is greater than the extra benefit). To keep up the illusion that growth is making us richer we deferred costs by issuing financial assets almost without limit, conveniently forgetting that these so‐called assets are, for society as a whole, debts to be paid back out of future real growth. That future real growth is very doubtful and consequently claims on it are devalued, regardless of liquidity.

What allowed symbolic financial assets to become so disconnected from underlying real assets? First, there is the fact that we have fiat money, not commodity money. For all its disadvantages, commodity money (gold) was at least tethered to reality by a real cost of production. Second, our fractional reserve banking system allows pyramiding of bank money (demand deposits) on top of the fiat government‐issued currency. Third, buying stocks and “derivatives” on margin allows a further pyramiding of financial assets on top the already multiplied money supply. In addition, credit card debt expands the supply of quasi‐money as do other financial “innovations” that were designed to circumvent the public‐interest regulation of commercial banks and the money supply. I would not advocate a return to commodity money, but would certainly advocate 100% reserve requirements for banks (approached gradually), as well as an end to the practice of buying stocks on the margin. All banks should be financial intermediaries that lend depositors’ money, not engines for creating money out of nothing and lending it at interest. If every dollar invested represented a dollar previously saved we would restore the classical economists’ balance between investment and abstinence. Fewer stupid or crooked investments would be tolerated if abstinence had to precede investment. Of course the growth economists will howl that this would slow the growth of GDP. So be it—growth has become uneconomic at the present margin as we currently measure it.

The agglomerating of mortgages of differing quality into opaque and shuffled bundles should be outlawed. One of the basic assumptions of an efficient market with a meaningful price is a homogeneous product. For example, we have the market and corresponding price for number 2 corn—not a market and price for miscellaneous randomly aggregated grains. Only people who have no understanding of markets, or who are consciously perpetrating fraud, could have either sold or bought these negative pigs‐in‐a‐poke. Yet the aggregating mathematical wizards of Wall Street did it, and now seem surprised at their inability to correctly price these idiotic “assets”.

And very important in all this is our balance of trade deficit that has allowed us to consume as if we were really growing instead of accumulating debt. So far our surplus trading partners have been willing to lend the dollars they earned back to us by buying treasury bills—more debt “guaranteed” by liens on yet‐to‐exist wealth. Of course they also buy real assets and their future earning capacity. Our brilliant economic gurus meanwhile continue to preach deregulation of both the financial sector and of international commerce (i.e. "free trade"). Some of us have for a long time been saying that this behavior was unwise, unsustainable, unpatriotic, and probably criminal. Maybe we were right. The next shoe to drop will be repudiation of unredeemable debt either directly by bankruptcy and confiscation, or indirectly by inflation.
 
While the man has a couple of points that are interesting, like controls on buying stocks on margin, he ruins the whole argument by fundamentally having no understanding of banking or money supply issues.

I would not advocate a return to commodity money, but would certainly advocate 100% reserve requirements for banks (approached gradually), as well as an end to the practice of buying stocks on the margin

If a bank has to hold in cash 100% of a reserve of it's deposits, then that bank can lend exactly nothing. Which means there is no reason for it to exist :crazyeye:

That said, he also has a point that many financial instruments have no purpose except to move money around with no economic benefit. And controls should be placed on that. However, he starts the article with the old old old limits to growth fallacy. And the Industrial Revolution pwned that as completely as something can be pwned.

So to look at the article as a whole, you have to pick a couple of useful points out of something written by someone who really has no foundation of understanding of economics.
 
While the man has a couple of points that are interesting, like controls on buying stocks on margin, he ruins the whole argument by fundamentally having no understanding of banking or money supply issues.
:lol: He is a former World Bank economist.

If a bank has to hold in cash 100% of a reserve of it's deposits, then that bank can lend exactly nothing. Which means there is no reason for it to exist :crazyeye:
:confused: People deposit money in banks.

That said, he also has a point that many financial instruments have no purpose except to move money around with no economic benefit. And controls should be placed on that. However, he starts the article with the old old old limits to growth fallacy.
Fallacy? So, unlike any creature in the known world, human beings are being constraint? Only magical thinking can allow for being in infinite growth.

And the Industrial Revolution pwned that as completely as something can be pwned.
And Genghis Khan's Mongol horde once completely pwned China & the Middle East.

So to look at the article as a whole, you have to pick a couple of useful points out of something written by someone who really has no foundation of understanding of economics.
Again dude, the guy was an economist for the World Bank. :crazyeye:
 
Well that probably explains why the World Bank has sucked so badly :p But if you eliminate fractional reserve banking, you eliminate the economy pretty much as a whole. So I find it hard to believe he is an economist.
 
:confused: People deposit money in banks.

And with a 100% reserve requirement, the bank couldn't lend any of that out, at least not for parties with different time horizons. And that's pretty much the point of banking - to match the needs of savers and investors with different time horizons. ;)


article said:
First, there is the fact that we have fiat money, not commodity money. For all its disadvantages, commodity money (gold) was at least tethered to reality by a real cost of production. Second, our fractional reserve banking system allows pyramiding of bank money (demand deposits) on top of the fiat government‐issued currency.

This smells like hardcore Austrianism. I'll let someone else handle it.
 
And with a 100% reserve requirement, the bank couldn't lend any of that out. ;)
Right, that's true. Perhaps people who put money in the bank could sign something allowing the bank to give one-month's notice before withdrawing more than 50% of their assets (so the bank could then invest 50% of their deposits.

Also, technically the Fed insures deposits (up to $250K now IIRC) so as long as they're insured they're gambling with the government's money.
 
It makes sense to me on the surface but I don't really know jack about global economics so I thought I'd post it here to see if people agree or disagree with it & why.

http://www.bicusa.org/en/Article.11053.aspx

I'm just going to have to disagree with you on principle. ;)

Seriously though, my wife is an economic wiz who works in one of Australia's top4 banks. When it comes to economic matters, I usually defer to her insight as she has access to information and resources that your average person, like me, doesn't know about. So she can paint a more rounded picture of what is going on. I'll show her this article tonight ans see what see says.

But generally, I find that there are a lot of opinions on this matter, some more informed than others, so I generally takes this things with a grain of salt. If a story really piques my interest then I'll do some researching on the author before looking at the story to get perspective on where he is really coming from, and if he has a political agenda of sorts to push. Otherwise, who can tell if that person is accurate or not? Then I'll find that trying to source his references can be helpful as well.
 
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Right, that's true. Perhaps people who put money in the bank could sign something allowing the bank to give one-month's notice before withdrawing more than 50% of their assets (so the bank could then invest 50% of their deposits.

Also, technically the Fed insures deposits (up to $250K now IIRC) so as long as they're insured they're gambling with the government's money.

But why 50% instead of some other number? Can banks cover their costs, pay interest on deposits, and cover their risks and still make a profit at that rate? At a 10% reserve ratio, and with deposit insurance to prevent/mitigate a bank run, it is very uncommon for a bank to fail for lack of cash. A few are mismanaged from time to time, and some are brought down by external factors they have no control over, but as a whole it works.
 
I'll show her this article tonight ans see what see says.
Hi Ms. Eric, how do you feel about your husbands Internet addiction? :D

But why 50% instead of some other number? Can banks cover their costs, pay interest on deposits, and cover their risks and still make a profit at that rate? At a 10% reserve ratio, and with deposit insurance to prevent/mitigate a bank run, it is very uncommon for a bank to fail for lack of cash. A few are mismanaged from time to time, and some are brought down by external factors they have no control over, but as a whole it works.
It's worked to create short-term gain as the expense of long-term sustainability.

The "growth, growth, growth at all costs!!" is the philosophy of yeast in a petri dish, it's works splendidly 'till they hit the edge. Now I'm not a fatalist, I believe humans are much more creative & innovative than yeast but on the flip side, we're also able to create a lot more damage, the petri-dish full of sugar situation is unlikely to happen in the real world, in nature there are checks & balances. But us humans have pushed aside most of those in our rise to domination. If we don't regulate ourselves we're going to be in severe trouble down the line. I simply cannot understand the mindstate that thinks wealth (as measured by the stockmarket) will continue to grow at around 10% forever once we get over this hump just because it has for the last 70 years or so.

Someone we need to figure out how to maintain quality of life & avoid political chaos in a world of declining resources. As I've said, I don't understand the ins & outs of economics but business as usual doesn't exactly fill me with confidence for our future. IMO, we've behaved like rich kids with a trust fund. For the most part innocently but we must face up to it nonetheless.
 
At a 10% reserve ratio, and with deposit insurance to prevent/mitigate a bank run, it is very uncommon for a bank to fail for lack of cash.

I agree with the following huge caveat: only if the rules are properly enforced. Watch or read Bill Moyers's interview with William K Black for some better insight, IMHO, than Narz's quoted article. Although I agree with Mr Daly that financial assets had "grown" far beyond their real wealth underpinnings. Which is just a longwinded way of saying that fraud and/or irrational valuations had created some funny money.
 
Hi Ms. Eric, how do you feel about your husbands Internet addiction? :D


It's worked to create short-term gain as the expense of long-term sustainability.

The "growth, growth, growth at all costs!!" is the philosophy of yeast in a petri dish, it's works splendidly 'till they hit the edge. Now I'm not a fatalist, I believe humans are much more creative & innovative than yeast but on the flip side, we're also able to create a lot more damage, the petri-dish full of sugar situation is unlikely to happen in the real world, in nature there are checks & balances. But us humans have pushed aside most of those in our rise to domination. If we don't regulate ourselves we're going to be in severe trouble down the line. I simply cannot understand the mindstate that thinks wealth (as measured by the stockmarket) will continue to grow at around 10% forever once we get over this hump just because it has for the last 70 years or so.

Someone we need to figure out how to maintain quality of life & avoid political chaos in a world of declining resources. As I've said, I don't understand the ins & outs of economics but business as usual doesn't exactly fill me with confidence for our future. IMO, we've behaved like rich kids with a trust fund. For the most part innocently but we must face up to it nonetheless.

I accept that we have to control environmental destruction and try to bring population growth to a halt. But there is no reason that that means we have to stop economic growth. Real growth is not just about doing more, it is about doing things more efficiently. The ability to substitute new raw materials for old ones that are in short supply means that resource scarcity does not have the impact doomsayers tend to think that it does.

But one thing to keep in mind, and that the OP author is inexcusably ignorant about when you view a little info on the guy, is that the dirt poor and ignorant people , you know, the ones who have the most children, don't tend to reduce the numbers of children they have until they are raised up to at least somewhat better of a socioeconomic situation. And that can't be done through a redistribution of wealth, so it has to be done through creation of wealth.

In short, we are riding the tiger: Get off at your peril.
 
Real growth is not just about doing more, it is about doing things more efficiently.
I agree but I think we've set the treadmill too fast to keep up.

The ability to substitute new raw materials for old ones that are in short supply means that resource scarcity does not have the impact doomsayers tend to think that it does.
As long as we can keep scrambling to keep up with every new resource that goes into depletion. Ultimately the race for techno-fixes will fail & we'll have to adjust our lifestyles.

But one thing to keep in mind, and that the OP author is inexcusably ignorant about when you view a little info on the guy, is that the dirt poor and ignorant people , you know, the ones who have the most children, don't tend to reduce the numbers of children they have until they are raised up to at least somewhat better of a socioeconomic situation. And that can't be done through a redistribution of wealth, so it has to be done through creation of wealth.
Not really. Russia is experiencing population contraction AND financial woes. Besides, how can we bring everyone else up the US's living standard when we can't even maintain it ourselves?
 
I agree but I think we've set the treadmill too fast to keep up.

It's not like we are aiming for a speed we can't get to. We're just trying to go as fast as we realistically can.

As long as we can keep scrambling to keep up with every new resource that goes into depletion. Ultimately the race for techno-fixes will fail & we'll have to adjust our lifestyles.

Adjust, sure. That doesn't mean give up.

Not really. Russia is experiencing population contraction AND financial woes. Besides, how can we bring everyone else up the US's living standard when we can't even maintain it ourselves?

Russia isn't that poor. And their population is failing for a number of reasons. It's the Third World that still has rampant population growth. Occasionally checked by war, disease, and famine, but not stopped by either. And when they do get to war, disease, and famine, they tend to do damage to their local environments so bad that it reduces how many people their regions can support. So the rich and the poor are both damaging the environment. But the poor are doing so in ways that destroys their ability to continue to live at all.

And that will not end until they are raised out of subsistence economic situations.
 
Not really. Russia is experiencing population contraction AND financial woes. Besides, how can we bring everyone else up the US's living standard when we can't even maintain it ourselves?

Narz, I don't often say this, but here you're either wrong or misinterpreting Cutlass' statement. Higher standards of living tend to depress reproduction rates. This holds both in the micro- and macro-levels.

At a macro-level, let's plot the total fertility rate against log GDP. This particular example comes from 2005.

Spoiler graph :
tfrvsgdp.png

Y-axis is total fertility rate; x-axis is log of GDP per capita in 2005. Source: World Bank Development Indicators Database


The correlation isn't exact - there are lots of things pushing around the TFR besides GDP per capita. But there's a clear correlation. You might object that this is cross-sectional, not time-series, and thus proves nothing -- but the trend also holds across time series, I just don't have that data on me right now. Rising income levels tend to cause population growth and fertility rates to fall. The question is how to bring up the standard of living of poor countries.

The observations on income and fertility are supported by micro-level data, particularly that drawn from surveys of microfinance groups, but this is getting slightly off topic anyway so I won't go into that unless requested.

--

On the creation of wealth: Cutlass, choosing wealth creation over wealth redistribution? I never thought I'd see the day. ;)
 
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Narz, I don't often say this, but here you're either wrong or misinterpreting Cutlass' statement. Higher standards of living tend to depress reproduction rates. This holds both in the micro- and macro-levels.

At a macro-level, let's plot the total fertility rate against log GDP. This particular example comes from 2005.

Spoiler graph :
tfrvsgdp.png

Y-axis is total fertility rate; x-axis is log of GDP per capita in 2005. Source: World Bank Development Indicators Database


The correlation isn't exact - there are lots of things pushing around the TFR besides GDP per capita. But there's a clear correlation. You might object that this is cross-sectional, not time-series, and thus proves nothing -- but the trend also holds across time series, I just don't have that data on me right now.

This is supported by micro-level data, particularly that drawn from surveys of microfinance groups, but this is getting slightly off topic anyway so I won't go into that unless requested.

--

On the creation of wealth: Cutlass, choosing wealth creation over wealth redistribution? I never thought I'd see the day. ;)

I've always been for wealth creation over wealth redistribution. If you thought otherwise you weren't really paying attention.
whistle9qn.gif
My point has always been that excessive concentration of wealth can only be expected to slow the creation of wealth.
 
Adjust, sure. That doesn't mean give up.
Living within our means = giving up?

Russia isn't that poor. And their population is failing for a number of reasons. It's the Third World that still has rampant population growth. Occasionally checked by war, disease, and famine, but not stopped by either. And when they do get to war, disease, and famine, they tend to do damage to their local environments so bad that it reduces how many people their regions can support. So the rich and the poor are both damaging the environment. But the poor are doing so in ways that destroys their ability to continue to live at all.
The rich are also doing so.

And that will not end until they are raised out of subsistence economic situations.
"subsistence economic situations"?

Narz, I don't often say this, but here you're either wrong or misinterpreting Cutlass' statement.
Just pointing out it's a trend rather than a law. Reproductive rates can drop without wealth increase & are going to have to.

Rising income levels tend to cause population growth and fertility rates to fall.
Correlation doesn't imply causality. The expensiveness of children is what causes the drop, not net-wealth. In countries where extra children is a burden people won't have any, where it is a perceived asset (countries with minimal child labor laws for instance) people will.

It's not so simple as $ = less children. Saudi Arabia is fairly wealth & yet the birthrate is still over 6 kids per woman.

The answer is not $, it's education. Oil rich Saudi Arabia (and Russia) should prove this point.

Anywayz, I'm gonna watch So's interview now.
 
Declining birthrates require several factors. It is correlated with improving economic conditions, but women have to have access to birth control, sufficient education to understand it, and the freedom to choose it. Saudi Arabia does not permit the freedom to choose.

What you do not see pretty much anywhere is people on the edge of survival with the conditions needed for managing their reproduction.
 
Correlation doesn't imply causality. The expensiveness of children is what causes the drop, not net-wealth. In countries where extra children is a burden people won't have any, where it is a perceived asset (countries with minimal child labor laws for instance) people will.

It's not so simple as $ = less children. Saudi Arabia is fairly wealth & yet the birthrate is still over 6 kids per woman.

The answer is not $, it's education. Oil rich Saudi Arabia (and Russia) should prove this point.

Anywayz, I'm gonna watch So's interview now.
And I said that there are lots of things bouncing around the TFR aside from GDP per capita. However, 'education' has become the go-to cop out answer for all of life's difficulties. It's cliche. That isn't to say that it's unimportant - of course education is important - but to just answer 'education' in general has become meaningless.

Let's look at Saudi Arabia. I think it's obvious that they are an outlier for cultural reasons (and their TFR is about 3.8/woman, above trend but not as high as you suggest). Further, i'd be willing to bet that if we took Saudi Arabia on a median income basis, it would fit the data rather well. They have a rather large level of income inequality (exact level is unknown; I can't find its gini coefficient from a google search).

Russia is having problems far beyond GDP that are bouncing around the TFR.

You have two outliers. I have an established trend that can be tracked for nearly 200 countries for 60 years. :)
 
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