[C3C] What do you value more?

[SayHayKid]

A Wonder that doubles the happiness of X improvement or adds X improvement in every city? Cathedral, temple, colosseum, etc.

 

[tjs282]

Provided the GW doesn't go obsolete, I'd rather have "Adds free BuildingX to each town". Bonus-points if the effect is global (for Archi-maps) rather than continental, and if BuildingX is useful but not necessarily cost-effective, so something that I might not otherwise build in most towns, e.g. a Temple, or a Hospital.

The other Wonder-flag is only useful if you've already got the Happy-buildings.

 

[SayHayKid]

Provided the GW doesn't go obsolete, I'd rather have "Adds free BuildingX to each town". Bonus-points if the effect is global (for Archi-maps) rather than continental, and if BuildingX is useful but not necessarily cost-effective, so something that I might not otherwise build in most towns, e.g. a Temple, or a Hospital.

The other Wonder-flag is only useful if you've already got the Happy-buildings.

That makes sense. As somebody who sometimes has a builder addiction, I didn't think about that. I was thinking about the extra benefit from the double happiness vs the maintenance cost of the new buildings added. I am adding some religious wonders to a mod and was trying to figure out which effect to make the more expensive wonder.

 

[vorlon_mi]

I agree with @tjs282 -- adding some building to every city is very valuable. Depending on the forms of government supported in your mod, production is usually higher in some cities than others. Building an expensive wonder in the core / productive cities that provides a building in the less productive cities can be a win. Moreover, any cities built *after* the wonder has been produced will get the new building for FREE, without expending any production. Your proposed religious happiness-boosting wonder would help jumpstart newly founded cities that are not yet connected to other sources of happiness.

 

[justanick]

Maybe more important: Any free building will cost no maintenance. This may not matter much in the short run, but it does keep piling up in the long run.

If Sun Tzu reduces payments for barracks by 15 gtp and we value 1 gold as 1 shield, then at 600 shields for Sun Tzu this is 2,5% Return on Investment just on the side of money. That is not bad.

 

[Civinator]

One point that was not listed yet, is the (at least relative) immunity of these "virtual" buildings to bombardment. So all in all, without doubt for me, the given virtual buildings in general have a greater value for the player than doubling the happiness.

On the other side there is always the danger, that these virtual buildings can make the game play more boring and sometimes illogically. So in my eyes there can be constellations in a mod, when doubling the happiness can lead to much better results in game play than to provide virtual buildings to all cities of a civ on the map or the continent.

 

[Lanzelot]

I was thinking about the extra benefit from the double happiness vs the maintenance cost of the new buildings added.

Buildings provided by a wonder don't cost maintenance. That's another factor that makes the "free building wonders" (Pyramids, Artemis, Sun Tzu, Internet) so powerful.

 

[Quintillus]

In an apples-to-apples case, I agree that free buildings are generally better.

What is apples to apples? The building that each wonder provides has the same base happiness (say, 2), the wonders cost the same, and are available at the same tech (or at least both with required techs). I can have no-maintenance free Colosseums or doubled Cathedrals? Why not go free Colosseums, in some cities that saves me 2 GPT in maintenance and I'll never have to build a Cathedral, not to mention the construction time savings.

But there is one catch in theory, and on in practice. In theory, the catch is that the maximum overall happiness is higher if you go for the double-happiness wonder. How important this is depends on the size of the cities and how many luxuries you have, but it may mean the difference between having to run the luxury slider or not. Whether that cancels out the free maintenance is a topic for a mathematician.

In practice, with the default rules, the "apples to apples" comparison doesn't apply. J.S. Bach's doesn't give free colosseums, but effectively also gives +2 happiness per (continental) city, but it requires an extra tech and comes later. The Sistine gives +3 happiness with its doubling, and isn't continental-limited. For both saving a tech and higher bonus (and coming earlier), I tend to prefer it, especially if I am religious and cathedrals are half price. Is that the optimal move? I don't know, but it is the one I tend to favor. The exception being if I'm already maxed out on wonder construction between Sun Tzu's, Leonardo's, and perhaps the Knights Templar, in which case Bach's arriving later is a good thing.

 

[saintnoelle]

Definitely adds something to every city -- on lower levels, having Temple of Artemis helps you border expand for no extra effort and can secure an early lead for the rest of the game.

 

[SayHayKid]

Definitely adds something to every city -- on lower levels, having Temple of Artemis helps you border expand for no extra effort and can secure an early lead for the rest of the game.

The border expand and culture is nice, but it is definitely pricey. Especially since it obsoletes. For the mod I am working on, I am playing with the idea of temples and other religious improvements mostly providing happiness and only minimal culture. In my mind, border expansion should result from the economic and military strength of your empire, thus I am planning on having "culture" instead represent power and making banks, marketplaces, harbors, barracks the "culture" buildings.

 

[r16]

if you have free walls due to Great Wall ... and am not sure about this because ı haven't played the ordinary game in years , when enemy artillery starts attacking a town , it can't hurt your units but basically will destroy every building in your town , given enough time .