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What do you want from an Economic Victory?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by man_in_finance, Jan 16, 2019.

?

For an Economic Victory, I like (select multiple) the following ideas and mechanics:

  1. Civs establishing currencies

    64.0%
  2. FX rates between currencies

    32.0%
  3. Trade routes being influential in Currency/FX development

    48.0%
  4. Inflation Rates

    28.0%
  5. Interest Rates: Simple form policies / no debt markets

    16.0%
  6. Debt Markets: civs can borrow currency/gold

    64.0%
  7. Purchasing Power: I can buy units in foreign currency if is weaker than my strong currency

    20.0%
  8. The strength of currency impacted by size of economy (cities and buildings)

    36.0%
  9. Companies - A civ builds/acquires large national/influential corporations

    96.0%
  10. Tax rates - and their impact to economy growth / state finances

    36.0%
  11. Something else I have posted about....

    16.0%
  12. [added late] strategic resources and luxuries being more internationally influential

    36.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    such system would require to keep an eye on the stock of building materials in different cities, with several types of them it can become burdensome
    maybe the pyramids should just consume 100 stone from the civ's pool at the start of construction
    construction time may be determined by how many citizen are working at the building site (set like workers are set to districts), productivity of labor and labor cost
    that will remove the 'production' from the game, only resources will be left
    and resources are tradeable, so we could have actual economy
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
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  2. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    We haven't seen all the figures yet, but GS seems to be moving in the direction of requiring 'stockpiles' of Resources to build units and maintain them.
    Since one of the hallmarks of 'civilization' - concentrating people into cities - is the ability to 'coerce' labor one way or the other (religious/political duties, pay for labor, food for labor, slavery, etc.) we can simply ignore the Labor Costs in most cases: labor can be found, even in the most 'Democratic' or 'Free' society (even democratic Athens had no trouble finding slave labor to work the silver mines that bought her navy).

    Then it becomes an exercise in putting together 'Resource' costs for every possible Construction, including Units, Districts, Buildings, Wonders, and Improvements (because it takes more than just Labor to build a Mine or a Plantation and make it work) - And Alternate Resources in many cases.

    Taking it one step further, if a Building (say, a Monument) normally requires Stone with an alternative Resource of Wood or Brick (clay from Flood Plains) then perhaps there could be alternative graphics based on whether your monument is a stone obelisk, a towering wooden 'Totem' pole, or a mud-brick construction. Since Buldings are not animated, the extra 'burden' on graphic art resources shouldn't be too excessive.

    And Trade would have to be extended to now include ALL Resources, including 'bonus' Resources like Stone or Copper (or 'Timber' from Forests or Rainforests), or 'Clay/Brick' from Floodplains).

    Early (Ancient Era) pretty much all such Trade would be Barter. Once Currency Tech is available, 'Gold' can be used to substitute for Barter in Trade - with a substantial Bonus for Civs with direct access to 'Coinage Metals' like Silver or Gold (which really, really, really needs to be added to the Resources in the game). After Banking, there could be another 'abstraction' introduced, in that 'Gold' could be 'borrowed' to pay for immediate Resource needs.

    Add in some new Great Merchants like the International Bankers such as Rothschild, Morgan, and Fugger, and the possibility of governments reneging or repudiating their debts and wrecking (momentarily) the International Banking System or having their loans 'called in' and going 'bankrupt' (unable to borrow for X turns, possible economic penalties to their internal economy) and the 'international Trade/Economic Model' would, I think, be about as complicated as we want to make it: I, for one, do not want to have to dig out my old Macroeconomic textbooks in order to play the game!
     
  3. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    afaik in GS there will be a common pool of resources for all of the civ's cities. it will make things easier for the player but on the other hand as trade is conducted between cities (via TRs), it would be more consistent to have a different stock for each city. on the other hand traders could be used not to transport specific resources but to create a trade network between a number of cities allowing resources of one city to be available to others.

    the existance of the slavery, on the contrary, testifies the scarcity of labor. when labor is abundant theres no need in slavery, workers come to work without compulsion. slavery was an expensive response to unsatisfied demand for labor. and labor costs are labor costs, you cant ignore them. Khufu pyramid requires 150,000 man-years, no difference is the labor 'free' or not.

    good point about alternative resource requirements. maybe wood, brick and stone should be interchangeable for most generic things like monument, comprised in the class of building materials, later joined by industrial steel. i think the whole system should not be too complicated for the player. there was a seemingly unsuccessful implementation of resource economy in Colonization (civ4 variant, didnt play the original), and so they didnt include it in civ5. Maybe, the resource trade should be implicit, like that of the Redistricting mod for civ6.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
  4. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I voted on corporations, and I think it would be the easiest way to implement and economic victory other than gaining large amounts of gold.
    Like founding a religion, it would be cool if you could customize it and eventually you can grow based off of what you chose it and once it reached internationally you could buy out the other Civs corporations to win.
     
  5. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    My example of the Laurion mines in Athens was an example of when slavery/coercion is used regardless of the scarcity or abundance of labor: the mines killed people at such a rate that the average worker of any kind didn't last more than a few years. Slavery or some other excessive coercion was the only way to get and maintain a workforce for them at all.

    Resource 'sharing' is a good way to make Internal Trade Routes mean something besides quicker movement of military/civilian units. Cities connected by a road/trade rose early on could share a certain percentage of Resources, improved roads/railroads would allow virtually unlimited sharing - a completely common 'pool' of resources for all building in all the cities so connected.
     
  6. HorseshoeHermit

    HorseshoeHermit 20% accurate as usual, Morty

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    I'm reminded that Civ: Beyond Earth implemented a resource availability system in its trade routes, just as you ask, Boris. I think it was just the six strategic types, but it could be for all resources. They were considered additional resources, additional sources on top of what the map gives. When you consider on top of that that trade route counts depend on the populations of the cities only, then you've also got the idea of stronger/weaker economic activity through scale already built in. It was a system that... well. . . it was not a system that formed part of Beyond Earth's failures.

    There's a lot from Beyond Earth that's appearing in Civ6 actually.

    ---
    I'm very interested in modeling the ebb and flow of labour, but still very unimpressed with a resource system for building materials. I've seen several mentions of "creating a real economy", of putting real "local resources" into effect. What is the gameplay? What is the actual thing that the player is becoming the steward of? The cost of failure to manage? The reward?

    What things are meant to be enabled or prevented by restricting settlement productivity to having .. "matching resources" ?

    Let me repeat. I am in fact thoroughly captivated by the hint of socio-economics becoming part of my Empire Manager game. But as I said, it is all too easy to make systems and rules that resemble, even faithfully, some structure in the real world, but are thereby mechanisms of some soulless importance, something to do and say "This is resource management!" and yet the interrelating concerns, to the rest of the systems and rules, are not present. The interrelationships to the surrounding structures of the real world, those are the connections that give those rules (the behaviour of the real thing) a meaning. It is not enough (for me) to have a "theme" of resource management. I want to deal with the impacts - i.e., the interrelated causations - of resource management. If I do.

    A place to start. . . the effect that different policies (or rulers) have on the classes of society, of individual groups rising and falling. I'd like to -feel- the pressures to capture and coerce labour , as the sovereign, in my gameplay. To feel the formation of an aristocracy, and the disenfranchisement of the peasant and serf... or, if I can manage it, the guardianship of a classless utopia as I guide it into being, at the real cost of such a thing.

    It's so hard to put these appetites into words. . .
     
  7. ShadowWarrior

    ShadowWarrior Prince

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    In the real, economic domination is the ability to use your overwhelming economic power to force other countries to pay heed to your desire. Saudi's domination in oil, and American domination based on its USD status as the global reserve currency are two such examples. Do existing mechanics in Civ 6 allow for modeling of such economic domination? Having the highest hammer production is great, but it doesn't translate into some kind of economic coercion. Having exclusive access to some kind of strategic resources (or having exclusive access to at least 2/3) might be a good base for the kind of economic domination that I am talking about.
     
  8. man_in_finance

    man_in_finance Chieftain

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    Actually I added an option in the poll to consider luxuries/resources more broadly, I think this is an important consideration.

    The point about establishing currencies and then potentially having to adopt another civs currency (in the case one collapsed) has been put forward already for discussion. Personally I go back and forth on this idea, I like it (and its real world reflection) but I think it might be too complex and better substituted by other abstract concepts that might be more fun.
     
  9. ShadowWarrior

    ShadowWarrior Prince

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    What makes the military aspect of Civ game fun is the ability to literaly destroy the enemy army and conquer the enemy cities. The domination element is very clear and tangibly expressed by the game mechanics. If we are going to have an economic victory that is meaningful and appeals to our "reptilian instinct", then the economic aspect of this game must be redesigned to render some very visible sense of domination over the enemies. In the religion aspect of the current game, that sense of domination is expressed in the form of missionaries converting new adherents, and so in economic victory, perhaps we should reintroduce corporation back into the game, and have our CEOs fight for market shares.
     
  10. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    where is it known from that they only lived for a few years? it could be an overstatement
    later, in the Roman gold mines in Dacia, free laborers worked

    about sharing, what would that percent mean? if city A stores 100 stone, city B can use 50% of it, e.g. it wont be able to build pyramids (100) but it would if there was 200 stone in city A?

    maybe trade routes should have a capacity, e.g. 10 resource per turn. if city B builds Pyramids it can take 10 stone per turn from city A, and so have 10 citizens assigned to the construction site. Assuming labor cost = resource cost. If pyramids were 100 labor but 50 stone, city B could assign 20 workers..
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  11. ehecatzin

    ehecatzin Emperor

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    Trading Companies: But not just as a repeat of the religion game, but tied to colonization and trade to secure certain resources, and then turn them into manufactured goods. for example mid game you could try to secure tea production, or rare woods for luxury furniture. On industrial you extend it to machine parts, and late you go for electronics or even digital goods.

    Civs establishing currencies: It would ve very interesting to have tied to a vassal or sphere of influence system in that you use your diplomatic and economic power to form economic blocks, like say, creating the Euro/Amero/etc.
     
  12. Gronaz

    Gronaz Chieftain

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    For a new economic victory, I would already be happy with new industrial era trade routes that give more gold but sucked from destination target. This would simulate inequal trade balances. These routes yields could be improved for each monopolies on resources owned (50% of total would already hard to grab), and be created by running factory projects. I would also like foreign debts. And the victory condition could depend on income.

    But If you can find a way both simple and gameplay relevant to implement currencies and inflation, I would like it !
     
  13. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    The Laurion mines weren't technically silver mines, they were argentiferous lead mines: lead ore with substantial amounts of silver embedded in it. Washing and processing this ore, which was largely done on-site, produced lead poisoning, the symptoms of which Hippocrates accurately described in the 5th century BCE. Also, most of the slaves working the mines were leased from private individuals, and the leases ran from as little as 2 years to a maximum of 7, giving a pretty good indication of the life expectancy of a slave in the mines.

    While physically the work was miserable, dark, cramped and dusty, it was the lead poisoning that killed off the workers, not the silver or the explicit mining conditions. Luckily for the gold miners, that didn't apply in the gold mines.
     
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  14. man_in_finance

    man_in_finance Chieftain

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    I appreciate the idea about combining resources, I think that is a new twist, and I also admire how you incorporated it with companies, which seem to be a very popular item. Im going to think on this for a while.

    I had the same initial idea about currencies, but after reading and reflecting on much that has been said in this thread I do wonder if this same concept cannot be abstracted away with trading partners (trading cliques). I found @HorseshoeHermit comments very coherent: Don't add complex material simply for the sake of adding complexity that simulates reality, rather manipulate the existing game mechanics in as simple a way as possibly yet expand the strategic multinational influence your decisions can have in a maximal sense.

    I'm also coming round to the notion that perhaps a pure Economic Victory is superfluous if a well played eco game can significantly enhance Diplomatic Victory (or other forms of victory). Although I want to wait for GS to really have a sense of this.

    However, I'm pleasantly surprised with the originality that keeps coming in this thread...
     
  15. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    I like this too. For me, a victory needs to be something where it is clear that you are the winner because you rule the whole world. The current victory exemplify this. With domination, you've established military control over the capitals of all other civs thus establishing military superiority over the whole world. With the culture victory, you've established your culture as superior since every civ sends their tourists to you. You rule the world because every civ is beholden to your culture. With the Science Victory, you've established your science as superior since you don't even need to live on Earth anymore, you can colonize other planets. I assume the diplomatic victory will be to get elected world leader so that makes sense as a victory. You control the whole world because the civs have elected as ruler of the planet. So with an economic victory, there needs to be a similar rationale. But just making a ton of money is not enough to be the ruler of the whole planet. Strategic monopolies makes sense because if you control all the key resources of the planet then you control what civs can do. They are beholden to you to run their economies and basically exist. So you rule the world that way.
     
  16. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    Very good points. This would make the Economic Victory one of Controlling Resources, and since GS includes the possibility of requiring much larger quantities of Strategic Resources to build and maintain units (and penalties for failing to maintain the 'maintenance' Resources) controlling quantities of Strategic Resources could become a mini-game of the Domination Game in itself.

    And what if that resource stockpile system is expanded to include Bonus and Amenity Resources? What if, in addition, we provide specific requirements based on Resources? Such as:
    Silver and Copper - required for coins, so a necessity to get the most out of Markets and Banks and enhances the financial aspects of Trade Routes.
    Furs - neither military nor civilian units can survive in Tundra without them, until the Modern/Atomic Era (artificial fibers) so without a source, any city is crippled in working or building on any Tundra tile.
    Sheep, Cotton, Silk - required for the first textile factories, which were Massive Cash Cows. IF they aren't going to give us a separate Textile Mill, then having any one of these when you build a Factory before anyone else adds substantial financial value to any Trade Route to a foreign destination.

    These are just quick thinking examples, but the point is that resources and a stockpile system and a variety of specific uses for resources make Monopolizing Resources a real competitive edge and a serious financial/industrial threat to other Civs.
    And, therefore, a good basis for a mini-game of Competitive Economics leading to an Economic Victory.

    Of course, the other side of that is that to have a really good model, in the late game many 'natural' resources have been replaced by artificial/manufactured resources: plastics, composites, 'consumer goods', etc. This would require you to also invest in Scientific progress, to be able to Monopolize the 'replacement' resources that start becoming important in the last 3 or so Eras of the game.
     
  17. HorseshoeHermit

    HorseshoeHermit 20% accurate as usual, Morty

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    Looks good. You could even say that the state of things beckons for this iteration on the resource concept. We started with "bonus resources" (nutrients/minerals) in Civ2/SMAC, actually named them later, then gave them particular improvement types. But deep down, they are merely +food modifiers for different biomes, creating a tiny, tiny bit of discrimination in the very earliest tech choices for hooking them up.
    The sampling of bonuses you provide, Boris, are enough to justify taking the system into the detail of this "local" layer.* One day I will have to try to write out an examination of what exactly would be "minutiae" for Civ, and where to put the decisionmaking. (Clearly, the tension to build a library vs. build for conquering is a desirable one. But building a market or building an improvement, less so. Building a cargo ship? eh. Building a harbor? Mmm.)

    The next thought is, I believe the game would need to have a resource system capable of doing the following: distinguishing the availability of the raw resource, from the output of derived goods made from that raw resource plus cultural knowledge. Mods in Civ4 have attempted to model this within Civ4's two systems of city-proximity, and resource-sourcing. So, you can make a Smelter of some kind of ore if that ore is in the city vicinity, but this smelter gives intermediate goods of that metal, and then the city routes connect those goods to all cities. The subsequent steps in the refining process each take that network resource as a prerequisite. Trouble is, in the mods from Civ4, they haven't got any kind of volumetric resource management.

    Even in Civ6 after the Gathering Storm xpac, we will have volumetric resources (only strategics - will bonus resources be just one xml line away?), but we will have to treat all uses of e.g. Oil as "the same". Luxuries I think are the next place to iterate before including bonus resources, because with luxuries you have the weird situation of, say, Silk or Whales being exported, despite those things being quite a distance from something useable.

    I'm just iterating on what you're getting at, Boris, about artificial resources. I think it is time for some mathematics to take the lead on the idea. Some concrete implementation details.

    *At the least, I believe the evidence is good that people would widely enjoy managing such a set of bonuses and requirements, based on the reception to Districting and puzzler elements of Civ6.
     
  18. NukingGandhi

    NukingGandhi Chieftain

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    I'd love to see specialized cities that all have different means of acquiring labor and different economic bases, like Detroit in it's heyday with thousands of free workers in the factories producing everything from pots and pans to railroad cars and actual cars. I'd also love to see some civs developing systems of logistics and comms way better than other civs because during the U.S Civil War the Union had 22,000 miles of rail while the Confederacy had only 9,000 and that cost them the war in the long run.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  19. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    To throw another idea or three out here, one way to 'model' Labor would be to re-emphasize the Specialists and Specialist Slots in the game.
    Every Building would have Specialist Slots. IF they are not filled, you don't get the maximum benefit from the Building. You would get a Specialist with every population point in the city, in addition to the ability to 'work' one tile out in the country. Since you could have several slots per building (sample: 1 Tier Buildings = 1 Specialist, 2 Tier = 2, 3 Tier = up to 3: 4 fu0ll Districts then, could require up to 24 Specialists, so you'd always have to 'pick and choose')
    Number of empty Slots (Jobs to be filled) might even contribute to Immigration - population increase in the city representing people migrating from the countryside or from other cities/Civs.
    Better trained population would give you more Specialists, so, say, every Library or University adds an 'extra' Specialist to the city.
    Total War-type mobilization allows you to put more of your population to work, so that might give, say 1 more Specialist per population point, BUT your population does not increase during that mobilization, because most of the women and some of the children are now working in factories.
    Every military unit built in the city removes one Specialist - trained workers going to war. That would give you a real balancing set of decisions to make, to avoid gutting your production (not enough Specialists in your Workshops, Shipyards and Factories) with too many units, or more units than you Population can really support.

    Just a bunch of ideas. I haven't really sat down to work out numbers, I just think this might be a way to represent 'Labor; in a game context. . .
     
  20. NukingGandhi

    NukingGandhi Chieftain

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    This could work with reintroduction of towns, which is an idea that has been floating around for a while. In other ideas there is the great article about some American inventions that revolutionized manufacturing that might be cool to implement. https://blog.thomasnet.com/american-inventions-that-revolutionized-manufacturing. Another idea is communications infrastructure that increases loyalty when connected to the capital, it could start out with messengers, then post lines, then telegraphs and finally phone, radio and internet.
     
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