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What do you want to see in RiFE or Ashes?

Discussion in 'Rise from Erebus Modmod' started by Derf, Apr 11, 2014.

  1. Derf

    Derf Modular Mushroom

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    I'm curious. There's been a selection of modules made for RiFE, many of which I've updated for Ashes of Erebus (aka Final Fixes Reborn). In the process of updating them I re-kindled my interest in playing the game through all the new content available - and a similar interest in creating, fixing and updating all those various modules.

    So in an attempt to breathe a bit more life into my favourite FfH modmod, I'd like to know what you'd like to see added, improved or changed. Up until now I've only made new modules that were suited to my own preferences, or by something seen in another modmod that I thought would be nice to have in RiFE.

    Now I'd like to change that and start creating the modules that the community want to see. This may well be limited by my own knowledge, which does not extend far into the murky reaches of Python, and what the game and mod is capable of. Where I cannot handle something myself, I hope others will be able to lend a hand.

    This is not in any way intended to stop on the toes of those developing Ashes of Erebus. Where possible, any fixes and tweaks brought up here I'd like to see move from any modules made to handle them, into the core code itself. Whether or not that happens, remains to be seen.

    So with that lengthy monologue over with - what do you want to see?
     
  2. Data662

    Data662 Chieftain

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    I've always wanted to see a Goblin civ.
     
  3. Derf

    Derf Modular Mushroom

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    An all-goblin civ might be a bit challenging, if nothing else because of the lack of distinguishing art for them, but I think unit-wise it might be possible. If Frostlings can be counted (They're similar, I've always thought of them as goblins adapted to the cold) then it becomes more likely.
    What would their UB's be though? Their leader, and traits? Much of it does seem at a glance to be possible through the Clan of Embers, so using a new leader with a trait that removes Orcish and replaces with with Goblin could make that work.
     
  4. Nero-Angelo

    Nero-Angelo Chieftain

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    This is a nice Thread :D

    There are some things (some pretty weird...) I'd always wished for. So, in no particular order:

    + Cutting/merging some civs to flesh out other civs mechanic-wise (like splitting the Luchiurp and add some stuff to the Kazad and the other "half" to the Mechanos) with Austrin and Dural being the most prominent "targets" - the most unrealistic and ingrate wish, I know
    + A world spell or (one time-only per game) ritual that adds some small landmass (island, small continent) on appropriate maps - "the promised land" or something like that)
    + An "eastern civ", like chinese/japanese medieval + fantasy stuff like Phoenix, sacred cranes and alike - the "Dao" civ in Orbis is a good example
    + Advanced settlers later in the game - with some :c5strength: and initial "base-buildings" so new settlements have an advanced start
    + Maybe the biggest wish: Limiting the number of units at the same tile (i.o.w. no more "stacks of doom") to make choke points important, get the feel of real armies, etc. -I know there is an option for this already but it could be more fleshed out
     
  5. A Moon

    A Moon The "A" is silent

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    Opera might have some advice for a goblin-civ, since at one point one was planned to be added it.
     
  6. Derf

    Derf Modular Mushroom

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    Dural are easy - don't load the module. I know they're somewhat of a pain to go up against though, they've decimated me in several games now.
    Splitting civs isn't something I think can be completely handled by modules, and I'm not entirely certain the Luchuirp are the best example. They're the Golem specialists, and there isn't really much to give to the Mechanos - or the Khazad. Golems are theirs alone.
    Removal of core civs could be done, that's just a matter of overwriting their XML entries to something else, setting the Graphical Only flag for them and their leaders, and done.

    Adding landmass - perhaps as a ritual, rather than a spell? Make it something to work for? My only concern here is that it may not play nice with all map scripts, particularly land-heavy ones.

    I've actually taken a look at Orbis' Dao civ, and I didn't really see too much to interest me personally. If there's enough interest though I'll take a look in more detail and see about bringing it over to RiFE. Same goes for the Palatinate Civ in there too, and the unique Pagan Temples for every civ.
    Orbis is at least slightly easier to port stuff from - Master of Mana, with it's many changes to core concepts, is a bit of a pain.

    Yeah, xUPT is in there, and could be done better. It works, but that's about it. I'm not fond of the mechanic myself, since the only change I've ever noticed is that instead of stacks of doom, there are just queues of mini-stacks of doom. Sit several decent defenders on a chokepoint fortress and put up a sign that says 'Trap is here, please enter and die'.
     
  7. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Emperor

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    If you did an all-goblin civ, would you have to do some redesign of the Clan of Embers, to remove their goblin units and replace them with orcish scouts instead?

    On a separate note, I noticed that one of the modules you're considering adding is something called "Khazad Next Generation." I never tried that, but took a quick look at the thread. Two quick suggestions for the Khazad, if you decide to incorporate that module:

    1) Remove the alignment restriction on Dwarven Druids. Right now, several of the Khazad and Luchuirp leaders are either Good or Evil, so to get one of their UUs they have to play around with religions. I don't know if you would need to block them from building Paladins and Eidolons to balance this out -- probably not, since any civ, if it converts religions in a certain way, can eventually have all three.

    2) Have a Dwarven (i.e., Khazad/Luchuirp) UB to replace the Grove. "Grove" fits the standard nature-magic Druid, but not so much the earth-magic Dwarven Druid. Could call it a Megalith or Stone Circle. And give it a different effect, maybe +2:) with Arete rather than Guardian of Nature, otherwise it's just the same building with a different name.


    And on yet another note, you might consider looking at the various threads that proposed common events for both RiFE and regular FfH2. If there's enough there of interest to you, maybe a module with additional events?

    That's all I have, really.
     
  8. Derf

    Derf Modular Mushroom

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    I don't think there's any necessity to re-do the Goblin part of the Clan - other civs frequently dip into each other in tiny ways: The Mulyalfar Ice Priestesses go into the elves, the Soldiers of Kilmorph are dwarven, and so on.
    On the other side of it it won't be too difficult to handle such a change. Artwork is the limiting factor, in both new non-goblin units for the Clan, and having enough for an entire civ of Goblins. As it stands, there'll be a lot of units that look very similar, which can be confusing.
    Melee, archery and mounted units all have at least one variant I can use - the standard goblins, goblin archers, and the Wolf Riders. Using a Shaman to provide magic can work, giving no upgrades, limiting them to tier 1 spells only. So at the basics, I can do it with just those four units.
    What I'm missing are:
    -Palace Mana/Resources and name
    -Other UB's - The Clan's Warrens are a possibility, but if the functionality remains I think the original FfH implementation of it is more appropriate (produce two units instead of one, not counting World/National units).
    -Hero(s) - I suppose Zarcaz the Long Sighted could fill in here, but then the event around him would have to be forced not to happen.
    -Leader(s) and their traits. The Clan leaders are all Orcs.

    There's probably more too, that's just what I thought of from the top of my head.

    Now for the Dwarves.
    Druids in general I've never bothered to use because of the alignment restrictions laid on them, but for the Dwarves it is a more obvious restraint. I don't think there's any need to remove access to Paladins and/or Eidolons though - that just seems like unnecessarily hurting them, at least on the occasions they're even used.

    Replacing a Grove with a Stone Circle is certainly do-able - I went with that name because I can re-scale and use the graphics from the Standing Stones world improvement, which seem perfectly appropriate.

    I've taken note of these two in my notes for that module, thought it should be noticed that the Myu modular civilization won't be able to take advantage of the Stone Circle UB without a compatibility mini-module (or a hard-dependency, but I don't want to go down that route).

    The one part of that module I'm considering dropping is the Dwarven Brewery improvement, largely due to the criticism that it wasn't powerful enough to justify it over a farm.
    And to address other comments made in the original thread for it, I'm thinking of adding Metamagic II to the Dwarven Engineer (And Master) - this will allow them to work better on worlds that have the Wild and Feral Mana game options turned on. I'm concerned the AI won't use that though.
     
  9. Randomness

    Randomness ...

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    The Grigori, Austrin, and Dural really need to be properly fleshed out/differentiated. Maybe get rid of the Dural, fuse their stuff into the Grigori and move some of the exploration stuff from the Grigori to the Austrin.

    Also, the Chislev have always been kinda boring,I don't have any specific suggestions for them though... :p

    On the goblin civ, there were some plans for that when RiFE died forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=373220
    Not much to work off of, but it might give you some ideas.

    EDIT:
    I think the Mechanos should be a little more focused. Right now, there stuff is kinda scattered. I think moving Handgunners to Iron Working as a Champion replacement would help with this. Also, Adeptus may be a little overpowered as they can do mass terraforming at very easily. Maybe make their "spells" take a few turns to cast, they should have a more difficult time doing this kind of stuff than magic users.
     
  10. arcticnightwolf

    arcticnightwolf Emperor

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  11. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    I think there was a Cambion, half-demon, samurai inspired civ module for one of the RifE versions.

    I wouldn't worry too much about cutting civs out. Players can always choose to disable civs.
     
  12. Derf

    Derf Modular Mushroom

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    OK, this is purely an unplanned idea that came to me while I was reading through threads over in the Fall Further subforum looking for yet more ideas for modular things to tinker with.

    This covers my earlier remarks on the Luchuirp, and changing them slightly instead of potentially removing them, which as an FfH Core civ, I don't really want to do.

    Golems have always been their thing, as it were, but there's also always that Dwarven overtone to them. And Dwarves are primarily Khazad.
    Solution: Remove the dwarves. The majority of their units are already Golems. If the remaining non-Golem units can be replaced (or disallowed) and similarly for the buildings, I can make them a Civ in their own right.
    This presents one main problem: Barnaxus. No problems there, you say? Think again.
    From the Frozen module's Ice Golem pedia entry:
    This obviously is the origin of Barnaxus' un-golem like intelligence, and the reason he can learn and think and such as a Hero. From this entry we can also discern that Barnaxus knew, or learned, how to make Golems. So, let us assume that instead of simply finding the Luchuirp, he took Mulcarn's command further than anticipated, and when the God perished, set about creating a civilization of nothing but Golems.

    Without another Hero units, this means Barnaxus could function much like Basium, Hyborem, Kahd, Taranis, etc - if he's killed (destroyed) he loses his leader traits. This is however disrupted by the ability to rebuild Barnaxus, which would effectively restore them. Not sure what to do about that.

    Next up, traits. Golems don't need to eat, drink, sleep, etc - so as their own civilization, they'll have the Fallow trait. Which gives us the issue of population growth. This is what I propose: The Golems can build Citizen Golems, similar to the Scions and their Awakened. These can then join the city, like Infernal Manes, allowing them to effectively build their populaton.
    Organized makes theoretical sense for the Golems. They obey their orders to the letter (Unless Barny says otherwise) and they're not among the living, so have fewer concerns. They can focus on the important things, make more Golems for their tasks that are specialised for them.
    This also suggests the Industrious trait, which again, makes sense. I don't want to go overboard though - making Fallow a Civ trait, and then Barny an Org/Ind leader seems to be quite sufficient.

    Tile improvements. Outside of resources, farms and food-producing improvements have little, if any, use to the Golems. The only real use may be to supply the needs of the very few living people who come to their cities. They'll gain a bonus to Hammer producing improvements - Mine, Quarry, etc - that again reflects their ability to work tirelessly. This could become unbalanced, so the improvements may have to cost more for them (if that's possible, if not their units and buildings will just cost more to offset it).

    Buildings. Almost all of these are now either irrelevant or unsuitable. As Golems and a Fallow civ besides, health-related buildings have no use to them. Similarly, Granaries, Salthouses and similar are also pointless. They may get a free building that replaces, but functions identically to, the Demonic Citizens of the Infernals. Golems want nothing more than to work, they cannot be unhappy or unhealthy. A bit damaged, but that's what maintenance is for. So a Golem-civ buildings would have to be completely tailored to their needs.

    The Divine: As mentioned, I don't want to go overboard on traits, but Golems seem to me to be Agnostic by nature. The first Golems may have been built by dwarven hands, but this is a civilization of Golems that effectively built themselves. They know who made them and they know why they exist - to work, to serve. They have no need to follow the divine.

    The Arcane: This could be taken one of two ways. On the one hand, Golems do not think as such, and one could argue that thought is vital for spellcasting - which would effectively deny them any arcane capability. However the other hand here is that Golems have a perfect (I assume) memory. Arcane Golems would be taught (or trained, or whatever) in the actions needed for each spell, allowing them to cast it perfectly every time. Or perhaps they are closer to Barnaxus and can think, in limited fashion, for themselves, allowing them to learn. In either case, this unlocks the entire arcane line for them.

    With all this in mind, I think a purely Golem Civ is possible, and works lore-wise if you include that entry from the Frozen module.
     
  13. fourtounakis

    fourtounakis Chieftain

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    Hmmmm,How about Espionage?I dont know if it is possible but the addition of Spies with the all time classic Missions(steal from treasury,form unhappiness,poison water etc) but also with Rife flavour missions as well,like mana stealing(makes a certain Mana of the targeted Civ available for lets say 10 turns),free the slaves(a slave unit is lost).Also this could be a good opportunity for a CoE remake,where this religion could have a 'temple' where it gives extra espionage points and maybe a special spy-replacer unit more strong.Also Dark Elves,Sidar and Mekaran order(Zaria who likes Espionage) could get a spy-replacement to a stronger
     
  14. Ghostslayer

    Ghostslayer Chieftain

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    What about the integration of useful general civ modules? I am thinking of revolutions, puppet states or the great WB that can be found in present versions of magister or MNAI.
     
  15. fourtounakis

    fourtounakis Chieftain

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    thumbs up for the Golem Civ,are they going to be an emerging civ(like infernal,frozen,mercurians) or given right away?
     
  16. Derf

    Derf Modular Mushroom

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    Damn you again Jherel. You know why. Being kept up late at night with plans and ideas... how you managed, I'll probably know in a few weeks time. And you two anw.
    Anyway.

    I'll address the three posts above this one, then I'll get into the reason I've hauled myself wide awake out of bed at gone midnight my time.

    Espionage. Since the starting of this thread I've gone through all the modmod subforums and many threads, and there's been two sides to this all along. I'm firmly among those who feel that Espionage was a poorly thought out design even in vanilla BTS. The way you gain points, the way you spend them, and the sheer face that you make yourself more vulnerable by taking action against your rivals - that is *not* how it works in the real world. Never mind that Erebus is far from the real world.
    However! Given what I have in mind, set out below, this is not an absolute guarantee that it will never happen - but if it does happen, it will require a significant redesign of how the system works that is thought out much better than the existing one.

    @Ghostslayer: I would like to incorporate those kinds of things, and indeed aspects of the BUG mod, but here there are two issues. First, it's just not the kind of thing I can do by modules, which up until now is all I've done but for a few personal tweaks that I don't make public because they're geared for me. The second is, again taking into account the below, code incompatibility. Parts of it require changes to the dll source code, other parts require python, and both of those are realms I have little experience with. Enough for some tinkering in places, but not enough for the task at hand. Couple that with the fact that as I don't run Windows, I have no way to compile the dll for Windows users, makes for a difficult combination.
    Again - this is not an absolute guarantee. It is just something that will have to happen with the aid of others. Once more - see the stuff below for details.

    The Golem Civ. After having talked with Jherel, anw and others on #erebus, there are a number of tweaks to the idea above, but to address the question: They'll be a civ you can start with, not a summonable a la Infernals, Mercurians, etc. I don't like summonables.

    Now for the tweaks. Golems will be able to think (Barnaxus has learned how to pass Mulcarn's gift of thought on to them in a fashion) and so gain experience, promotions, etc. This unlocks the Arcane line for them fully. They will not be agnostic, as with thought comes the ability to question the idea of why they are there, etc. At present there is no decision on whether they will use the regular disciple units (who are not golems) or will get their own.
    Leaders. Barnaxus as the Golem leader will stay, however the Luchuirp leaders will be changing. They'll still be present, but they will be Khazad leaders, and if you play as the (former) Luch leaders, you'll have some limited access to Golems to reflect that. The majority will still be in the Golem Civ though.
    This of course means that the Luchuirp as they stand are effectively going away, if you don't include their movement to the Khazad. But in the overall scheme as it stands, you shouldn't notice this.

    Ok, and now for the main event, the reason I'm up so damn late.

    Ashes of Erebus, like Final Fixes (And Reborn) is a continuation of RiFE after the RiFE developers... went their separate ways. There are other ways of putting it, but let's leave it at that. At the start of this thread I said I don't mean to step on the toes of those working on Ashes of Erebus, there doesn't appear from my perspective to be a lot coming out of their thread.
    So despite the insistence I wouldn't go this far while I was talking on #erebus (Damn you again Jherel.) I'm planning to start my own continuation of RiFE, and it will be based on the last version of RiFE - without either Final Fixes or Ashes of Erebus. This is going to be a massive undertaking for me because up until now, I've worked only with modules, only on the python when I needed to, and never in the dll source.

    I have already got plans for this, and that's what's been keeping me up.
    My vision for the Golem Civ can only really be realised if I can work with the code in a way that modules just aren't suitable for. Several of my modules or mini-modules could be merged into the source code - Giantkin Fix, the updated Jotnar and Frozen modules, and the Khazad: The Next Generation to name but a few.
    Many of the additional leaders just don't bring enough to the scene. Emergent they may be, but they do so little. Take Lorelie Coral, the Amurite leader. All she has is Hydromancer. All that does is give Arcane units a slightly buffed Water Walking for free. This isn't enough to justify it, IMO. Such leaders will not be removed as such, but will be made modular so people can choose to have them or not.

    In taking on this kind of project, there's the potential to merge such things as can be found in Tholal's More Naval AI and MagisterModMod, along with things from the BUG mod. RiFE itself has a few little pieces here and there that have made their way in, such as the great person bar. Merging all of them will be quite a task, and among them Sevopedia - despite my liking of it - will not be merged. The ability to filter using the drop-down boxes are more useful, and unless they can be made to work with Sevopedia (I rather doubt it) I prefer the 'pedia the way it is.

    Mercurians and Infernals. These will not be summonables for much longer. There'll have to be changes made to accomodate this, such as the ability to train Hyborem and Basium like other Hero units. Mercurians in particular will have to be modified to flesh out their human units enough to function as a full civ - which might be done by applying an Angel racial and allowing all units. Infernals will need more work to balance them, and that has yet to be decided.

    There's a lot more that I'd like to do, but I've got down what I wanted to for now. Do take note that this is, at this stage, only a plan - I may or may not follow through, but it is increasingly likely the more I realise what I want to do just can't be done by modules alone.
     
  17. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    Re Golem Civ
    A golem civ that builds it's population is a good concept for a fallow civ.

    The python to give back the leader traits when Barnaxus is resurrected would be easy.

    The civ traits make sense. One thing you didn't mention in your initial idea post was great people. If the golems are as unthinking as you suggest they should get no great people.

    Actually, the unthinking aspect creates a bigger problem. Without thought, the civilization can not develop. The dwarves as the masters of the golems provide this with the existing Luchuirp. Without the dwarves, you need to allow for some thinking golems (or other entity), otherwise they are stuck in a permanent (efficient) rut.
    There are ways to explain some thinking golems;
    • maybe the first golems made by Barnaxus immediately after being made intelligent also received some of that intelligence
    • maybe exposure to Creation/Life/Chaos mana triggered sentience in some golems
    • maybe a glitch in the (programming) rituals resulted in some golems developing sentience
    • maybe Sucellus (as the God authorised to enter Erebus gave them life when he was given the Precept of Life in an attempt to atone for his failure to stop Mulcarn)

    If some golems are sentient, then it raises other questions about the civilization;
    • Is Barnaxus aware of the other sentient golems?
    • Are the sentient golems trying to raise the other golems to sentience or keep them as dumb slaves?
    • Are the sentient golems bound by the same instructions that Barnaxus is?
    If you do have some other sentient golems, then you could have less frequent spawning of great people, rather than none. When Barnaxus dies and before he's resurrected, instead of removing the leader traits you could give a different set of traits to represent this cabal taking over.

    Regarding religion, I don't think you need to force agnosticism on them.
    "Make me more." is a great command, like ,"Be fruitful, multiply, conquer the earth.", that if followed blindly leads to the destruction of everything else.
    Does Baraxus think it's enough to simply keep building more golems to fulfil the order?
    Must the golems be built for Mulcarn, the "me" in the command? If so, how does Baraxus cope with Mulcarn's demise? Does he focus on resurrecting the Precept of Ice? Does he see all Gods as aspects of One and so creating golems to serve any is as good as creating them to serve a specific God?
    Does he view the "me" in the command as referring to himself - i.e. Make Barnaxus (me) better (more). The first part of obeying the order was attaining self-awareness, then working as a God's apprentice (as he saw it) and the whole golem civilization has been built up by him so he can learn more of himself and so understand how better to improve himself (as he no longer has access to a God's guidance). Learning about religion would then fit with him trying to learn how to make more of himself or find a new God to be his master/teacher. The Golem civs versions of the various temples could have the palace as a pre-requisite as the only place where religion would matter is where Barnaxus/sentient golems are. Religions could be prevented from spreading to other cities. That would leave religious options open to the player but it's a less valuable strategy than it would be for other civs.

    You'll need to put some thought into the cost of growing cities/building settlers. For living civs, the cost to add more population goes up. At a flat cost to add population and unlimited growth, sooner or later the golem cities gain a serious advantage. You could put a cap on city size and then base population/settler cost on the average amount it would cost another civ to grow to that size. I'm not sure what rationale you'd back up such a cap with. You could remove the specialists from their versions of buildings - this would fit with the fewer/no Great People idea and would mean that there's no value in growing a city beyond the tiles that can be effectively worked.

    What happens to the existing population when golems take over? Are they killed, converted to flesh golems or left as they are?

    Anyway, just a few points for you to ponder.
     
  18. Derf

    Derf Modular Mushroom

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    Yes, many of the points raised there about unthinking have had to be redressed because the original idea didn't handle it well enough. Given that I'm largely making this up as I go along (I'll even admit it) I'm not surprised.

    So, lets see: Golems are no longer unthinking. I'll handle this via lore, which I'll write shortly. Or possibly before you see this and on the end of this post, I don't know yet.

    If it works, the restoration (and potential for repeated removal and restoration) could make for a very interesting mechanic.
    I'd like to buff the Barnaxus unit a bit, since he's not terribly powerful by himself and I feel it doesn't really reflect a Golem that's weathered the entire Age of Ice and slightly beyond. I could do this by making him upgradable (Similar to the Illians and Auric Ulvin) but then there could be issues with the above python not recognising him. That can be solved later though; this is all just planning and changing the unit is a secondary concern.

    The population mechanic - I'm aware this is not going to be balanced as it is. The flat cost does raise plenty of issues, particularly late game, even with a considerable cost to it - which is also not really desirable, as it will hurt them in the early game.
    So my solution, which will likely involve going into the dll source (And therefore wait until if/when I take up my own RiFE continuation), is to make the cost scaled based on city size. Smaller cities will be able to grow themselves quicker, but each subsequent Citizen Golem will cost more than the last. There could also be an empire-wide scale, which increases it by a smaller amount based on empire population, but this makes it hard to grow them in the endgame.
    In short: I'm aware it needs work. I'm working on it.
    As for conquering the city, that too is a bit of a grey area. I may have to make it work like the Scions, which if memory serves, halve the population of a city they capture to reflect those who have taken the Emperor's Gift (or something like that). This would reflect the Golems being shunted out of the positions the living humans (and others) take for themselves, the general disruption it would cause, any Golems smashed in the taking of the city and so on.

    And now, for the thinking part and the lore. Like much of this, I'm making this up as I write this, and you get the benefit of not seeing the false starts and stuff before I decided to post the finished piece below. In theory, this piece is what will become the History entry in the 'pedia for either the Leaderhead, the Civ, or both (split as necessary) when I get around to actually making the civ.

     
  19. fourtounakis

    fourtounakis Chieftain

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    Here is a new Civ that i came up thinking this morning.Since I have a secret love about emerged civs I would suggest a Civ that spawns through Octopus Overlords via Ritual.The interesting here is the fact they can build cities in the sea( i have seen that being able to be done in another mod) and be like chtulhu racial.Cities in the sea/ocean can have a specific worker and specific improvements for the sea(e.g. seaweed farms for food,aquatic mines for production,aquatic cottages for commerce,etc).They can be terraformers towards Marsh in order to conquer the land and their 'ground units' will be able to walk only through Marsh or else they will be dried up and die.As concerning the Race,they can be water demons with water walking,but penaltised land capabilities.Land Assaults can be done with a spell that temporarly changes the plots around the adept into marsch for 3-5 turns to keep the advantage going.
     
  20. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,812
    Location:
    France
    well like said on #erebus :
    they could have a unique building/trait that has un-health consume hammers instead of food.
    and health counter un-health ... it is not a huge mind-gap to have a golem maintenance be called "health"
    then grain and whatever produces no health
    and copper/iron/marble ? provide health... and some buildings... and sea-water is bad for health.

    however I think that having golem-citizen cost increase with city size also important : otherwise there might be steamrolling issues.
     

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