What DOC civics would historical civilizations have used?

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Just an idea, Jan 21, 2022.

  1. Just an idea

    Just an idea Chieftain

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    There has been some discussion on this forum about leaders' favorite civics. I thought it would be fun to try to assign civics to case examples from civilizations.

    I try to have case examples according to civs leaderheads so this might be also helpful for favorite civic discussion. Feel free to comment how mistaken I am or to make similar analysis of your own. I'll be starting with the Vikings.

    Ragnar Lodbrok (legendary, 700s-800s?), Viking Age Sweden
    GOVERNMENT
    During the time period Sweden was made up of multiple petty kingdoms. Exact information about their customs of succession is scarce. Ancient Norse had gatherings called Things. Apparently Things were at least occasionally used for electing a new king. Elective
    LEGITIMACY
    Ancient Norse didn't really use vassalage in a sense that king would give someone landholdings in exchange for military service. Kings weren't considered above the law and Things, in which every free man could participate, were used for creating and enforcing laws. As weird as it sounds, Citizenship
    SOCIETY
    Norse had a thrall class that made up of about 25% of their society. Thralls were slaves that were usually acquired from raids. Slavery
    ECONOMY
    In addition to raiders, Vikings were also merchants. Trade routes they established, like one from Baltic Sea through Russia to Black Sea and Constantinople, continued existing even after Viking age. Merchant Trade
    RELIGION
    Norse paganism didn't have any full time religious leaders. Animism
    TERRITORY
    Viking Age got its name from Norse raids and conquests. While Tributaries could make sense since Danegeld was actually tribute paid to Vikings to avoid raids, I'm still leaning towards Conquest

    Gustav II Adolph (1611-1632), Swedish Empire

    GOVERNMENT
    During the time of Gustavus Adolphus Sweden was a hereditary Monarchy
    LEGITIMACY
    During his reign, he reorganized Sweden's administration so central government had more influence. Centralism
    SOCIETY
    Gustavus Adolphus forced nobility to grant peasants more autonomy and improved education. Individualism
    ECONOMY
    Even during its Great Power phase Swedish economy relied heavily on foreign trade. Merchant Trade
    RELIGION
    During early 1600s Catholics were still persecuted in Sweden in wake of Reformation so Tolerance doesn't fit. Reformation made King of Sweden official leader of Swedish Church, so Theocracy
    TERRITORY
    Sweden's organizational changes were largely so that it could field an army able to compete with great powers. Conquest

    Einar Gerhardsen (1945-1965, not continuously) Post- WW2 Norway

    GOVERNMENT
    Norway is constitutional monarchy so, Monarchy
    LEGITIMACY
    Constitution
    SOCIETY
    Gerhardsen played major role in turning Norway to Social Democratic welfare state. Egalitarianism
    ECONOMY
    Public Welfare
    RELIGION
    Before I did research for this I would have guessed that Norway would be secular state, but it was only in 2017 that Church of Norway became separate organization from Kingdom of Norway. King of Norway is also legally required to be a member of Church of Norway. Gerhardsen himself actually resigned his membership with Church in 1918 for his Socialist sympathies. Tolerance
    TERRITORY
    Norway is one of the founding members of NATO. Multilateralism

    Sorry last one is a bit shorter, but I thought these were fairly self-explanatory.
     
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  2. Just an idea

    Just an idea Chieftain

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    Let's try same thing with Turkic civilization. I'm mostly using Wikipedia as my source, so make of that what you will.

    Bumin Qaghan (551-552), First Turkic Khaganate
    GOVERNMENT
    First Turkic Khaganate's leaders were from Bumin's family. In terms of early monarchies, metric I'm primarily going to use whether they were running Monarchy or Despotism is their stability. First Turkic Khaganate lasted just a little over 50 years. Despotism
    LEGITIMACY
    Turkic Empire consisted of dynastic Ashina clan and their subordinate clans. Vassalage
    SOCIETY
    Selling of slaves to Islamic nations was significant source of wealth for Turkic tribes 8th century onward. There are also text from First Turkic Empire referring to people of defeated political entities with words that translate to either slave or servant. Slavery seems likely.
    ECONOMY
    Turkic Empire used their military power to protect trade along the Silk Route. Merchant Trade
    RELIGION
    Main religion in Khaganate was Tengrism, which researchers consider as animistic prior to 12th century. Turks also incorporated elements of Buddhism to their religion. Animism
    TERRITORY
    Göturks used their military power to rapidly build an empire. Conquest

    Alp Arslan (1063-1072), Seljuk Empire

    GOVERNMENT
    Seljuk leadership was dynastic and lasted significantly longer than First Turkic Khaganate (over 150 years). Monarchy
    LEGITIMACY
    Seljuk Empire used military fiefs ruled by Seljuk princes to support their army. Vassalage
    SOCIETY
    During Alp Arslan's reign he used fief system to establish nomadic Turks to agricultural area. Later Seljuk Empire's armies transformed from using mainly nomadic cavalry warriors to Mamluk slave armies. Manoralism or Slavery
    ECONOMY
    Trade on the Silk Road was important for Seljuk economy. Merchant Trade
    RELIGION
    Seljuks were Muslims. They founded large amount of madrasas. Monasticism
    TERRITORY
    Again, rapid military Conquest to build an empire.

    Tamerlane (1370-1405), Timurid Empire
    GOVERNMENT
    Timurid Empire broke to civil war after death of Timur and even after it ended government had very little influence in certain parts of empire. Despotism
    LEGITIMACY
    While Timur held scholars in high regard, for the governance of his empire he appointed his relatives. Vassalage
    SOCIETY
    During Timur's invasion of Armenia and Georgia over 60000 locals were captured as slaves. Slavery
    ECONOMY
    Timur tried to actively encourage trade on the Silk Route. Merchant Trade
    RELIGION
    Timur's own approach to religion seems to have been rather pragmatic. He used Islamic religion when it was advantageous while using steppe traditions on other times. Timur held scholars in high regard and was quite tolerant to them. Monasticism?
    TERRITORY
    Timur tried to recreate the Mongol Empire. Conquest
     
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  3. Gritzeldrei

    Gritzeldrei Warlord

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    Cant wait to see someone make the civics for American leaders and see a comment warzone
     
  4. Dracosolon

    Dracosolon Warlord

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    Location:
    France
    FRANCE

    Charlemagne (768-814)
    GOVERNMENT - Monarchy
    At this point in time the French monarchy was well established, with the Carolingians constituting its second dynasty.
    LEGITIMACY - Vassalage
    SOCIETY - Manorialism
    Charlemagne was one of the leading figures in codifying the feudal system.
    ECONOMY - Merchant Trade?
    Somewhat by default, there aren't a lot of appropriate options for the medieval period. His economic policies mostly centered around standardizing currency.
    RELIGION - Clergy?
    I think the difference between Clergy and Monasticism is very relative since medieval Christianity had elements of both. Charlemagne's reign was marked by closer ties to the church and more involvement of the latter in secular society so I'm willing to give Clergy the edge though.
    TERRITORY - Tributaries?
    Conquest is arguable but seems more appropriate for the older Frankish gains in Gaul. Tributaries to me seems to better reflect the need for diplomatic legitimacy that Charlemagne sought with the papacy. Anyway, lots of conquests, lots of tributaries.

    Louis XIV (1643-1715)
    GOVERNMENT - Monarchy
    Still the Ancient Régime.
    LEGITIMACY - Centralism
    The medieval French monarchy had a relatively weak hold on many of its vassals; the Renaissance era was a slow process of centralisation of power around the king and the burgeoning bureaucracy at the expanse of the provincial nobility, culminating in the Sun King's absolutism. From this era onward France has been a very centralised country, with politics and economy heavily focused on Paris at the expense of the province (even if Louis XIV famously built his palace outside of Paris, in the neighboring village of Versailles).
    SOCIETY - Manorialism
    In spite of the development of some industries like textiles, France remained for long an overwhelmingly agrarian society.
    ECONOMY - Regulated Trade
    The economic policy of Colbert, then minister of finances, was distinctly mercantilist and protectionist.
    RELIGION - Theocracy
    Louis XIV abolished the Edict of Nantes (1598-1685) which gave some limited religious rights to Protestants, leading to persecutions and exiles. Absolute monarchy itself was firmly rooted in the divine right to rule.
    TERRITORY - Colonialism
    The 17th century saw the development of France's first colonial possessions and participation in the slave trade.

    Napoleon Bonaparte (1799-1815)
    GOVERNMENT - Despotism?
    His later Empire had dynastic ambitions but Despotism fits the kind of strongman leadership of which he is one of the most iconic examples.
    LEGITIMACY - Revolutionism?
    The central paradox of his reign is that it claimed to follow the ideals and fervor of the preceding Revolution, even as it shedded most of its changes in favor of an authoritarian and relatively conservative regime.
    SOCIETY - Individualism
    ECONOMY - Regulated Trade?
    Revolutionary France and the Empire were largely dominated by the ascendant bourgeoisie, reflected in their broadly liberal outlooks on property and individual rights. However, the slow industralisation of France and the permanent conflicts with other European powers meant that its conversion to Free Enterprise capitalism was still in progress.
    RELIGION - Tolerance
    Following the Revolution Napoleon renewed ties with the Catholic Church with the Concordat of 1801, a compromise that only partially restored some of its old privileges. The Revolution and the First Empire were also periods of relative tolerance toward Jews and the few remaining Protestants.
    TERRITORY - Colonialism or Nationhood?
    You could probably make an argument for both. The French Revolution was one of the most important examples of replacing monarchist legitimacy with nationalism, and the Napoleonic Wars were a key part in the spread of these ideas and in new forms of mass warfare. But while the French colonial empire shrinked under these same wars, it didn't disappear, and one of Napoleon's most controversial decisions was his reinstitution of slavery in overseas territories.

    Charles de Gaulle (1940-1969)
    GOVERNMENT - Democracy
    Outside of the interruption of the Vichy regime France has been a democratic Republic since 1870.
    LEGITIMACY - Constitution
    Following WW2 France adopted a brief parliamentary Fourth Republic with its own Constitution, before De Gaulle replaced it by a different, more President-centered Fifth Republic and another Constitution.
    SOCIETY - Egalitarianism?
    While De Gaulle himself was of a conservative sensibility, post-war French society doubled down on several 20th century trends such as more independence for women and various forms of militantism over minority rights. Most notably women gained the right to vote in 1944.
    ECONOMY - Public Welfare
    The rebuilt of post-war France involved the development of various measures of social democratic inspiration such as more power to trade unions and the creation of an ambitious social security system.
    RELIGION - Secularism
    20th century France had been secular thanks to various reforms of the previous Third Republic.
    TERRITORY - Nationhood or Multilateralism?
    While France was from the start part of what would become the European Union De Gaulle resisted some of its developments and most of its extensions happened under later presidencies. He also had France leave NATO in 1966 and sought to ensure a relative degree of strategic autonomy from American influence.
    Regarding colonialism, his presidency underwent with partial reluctance the progressive dismantlement of the colonial empire, most notably with wars in Vietnam and Algeria concluding with independence for both countries. Subsaharan colonies acquired independence more peacefully, though a lot of these still have to deal with overt economic ties and not-so-overt corruption and clandestine operations on the part of modern France, so YMMV on whether French colonialism still exists in some form.
     
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  5. Just an idea

    Just an idea Chieftain

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    Next in line, Tibet. This was quite difficult.

    Songtsen Gampo (c. 618- 650), Tibetan Empire
    GOVERNMENT
    Tibetan Empire was ruled by Yarlung dynasty. Monarchy
    LEGITIMACY
    Some sources tell that Songtsen Gampo modeled his administration after Second Turkic Khaganate. Chinese sources on the other hand claim that after his war against Tang in 637-638 he sent Tibetan nobles to imperial schools. Vassalage or Meritocracy
    SOCIETY
    At this point in Tibet's history, most Tibetans were still nomadic. Slavery in Tibetan society appears to be on very limited scale. Traditionalism
    ECONOMY
    On this one there was very little information. It seems state took very little role in trade. Merchant Trade? Maybe Reciprocity
    RELIGION
    Buddhism first arrived to Tibet during Songtsen Gampo's reign, but it is considered unlikely that Buddhism would have spread much beyond foreigners at court at this point. Tibetan Buddhism is monastic religion. Animism or Monasticism
    TERRITORY
    Tibetan Empire was built on its military success. Conquest

    5th Dalai Lama Lobsang Gyatso (1642-1682), Ganden Phodrang

    GOVERNMENT
    On this I'm quite unsure. What civic should be used to represent reincarnation based monarchy. When Dalai Lama dies, monks seek for his reincarnation. If they find multiple candidates they draw lot between them. Argument could be made for Monarchy, Elective or Republic
    LEGITIMACY
    During his reign, 5th Dalai Lama centralized Tibetan governance. Centralism
    SOCIETY
    Tibetan society was divided to three classes; high (nobility and monks), middle (farmers and merchants) and low (slaves, servants and certain occupations considered unclean like butchers and smiths). Classes weren't as strictly hereditary as in Indian caste system because of high importance of monks. Within middle class one's status was largely dependent on land ownership. Caste System or Manoralism
    ECONOMY
    During 5th Dalai Lama's reign Tibet started using coins, but otherwise there was little change in economy. Merchant Trade
    RELIGION
    5th Dalai Lama made Dalai Lama supreme authority in Tibet in both secular and religious matters. Theocracy
    TERRITORY
    5th Dalai Lama's foreign policies don't fit as Isolationism or Tributaries. Also unification of Tibet relied on military power. Conquest.
    I'm starting to think that I give everyone Conquest as their Territory civic.
     
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  6. Logoncal

    Logoncal Prince

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    Probably because you chose to try to define civics on quite hardcore conquerors (Vikings, Timur, early Tibetans)
     
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