What Economy?

[onedreamer]

and where did I spoke about the elves ??

No clue, I probably screwed up.

why do you ask me to learn to play civ ???

As I already said, cottage and specialist economies just don't exist. Also, a general civ economy doesn't exist. These so called economies are based on plot improvements and city improvements, plot improvements are based on terrain and city improvements on.. cities, so the strategical decision between cottage or whatever else is focused mainly on the city, and on the terrain, not on the civ (with some exceptions, in FFH2, especially with Infernals). IE: specialize your cities. Civ4 buildings themselves also blantantly suggest it. This is a so called hybrid economy. But in fact it is the only way to play the game decently. Or does anyone really want to state that when running a CE, they never use any specialist anywhere, and vice-versa ? You may focus on one or the other at varying times during a game through civics, and you may focus on either one based on the city. Also, don't forget there are other improvements besides farms and cottages, and some, like the watermill, are a hybrid by themselves.

 

[EverNoob]

No clue, I probably screwed up.



As I already said, cottage and specialist economies just don't exist. Also, a general civ economy doesn't exist. These so called economies are based on plot improvements and city improvements, plot improvements are based on terrain and city improvements on.. cities, so the strategical decision between cottage or whatever else is focused mainly on the city, and on the terrain, not on the civ (with some exceptions, in FFH2, especially with Infernals). IE: specialize your cities. Civ4 buildings themselves also blantantly suggest it. This is a so called hybrid economy. But in fact it is the only way to play the game decently. Or does anyone really want to state that when running a CE, they never use any specialist anywhere, and vice-versa ? You may focus on one or the other at varying times during a game through civics, and you may focus on either one based on the city. Also, don't forget there are other improvements besides farms and cottages, and some, like the watermill, are a hybrid by themselves.

I'd have to agree that in FfH a pure CE or SE isn't the best way to go. In vanilla there is representation or emancipation which encourages you to specialize your entire economy towards a CE or SE. But even in vanilla it seems that an early game SE transitioning into a CE as you get the cottage boosting techs is the best way to go. In FfH there aren't civics that would encourage you much to specialize your entire economy towards CE/SE.

A cottage city is always the best option in an area filled with flat grassland tiles and a specialist city is better if you have few workable tiles but abundant food resource.

 

[Sureshot]

traits decide types of economies as well
if ive got Phi, i put a lot of effort into a single super specialist city
if im Fin, i cottage everything
if im Fin/Org, i plan on a huge empire and go with Farms/Aristocracy for quick commerce and city growth

 

[Ecofarm]

- Civics such as agriculture, theology, guilds and caste system all help SE. Yet there is no equivalant to help CE (like the +1 hammer and accelerated growth in BTS).

Agriculture vs Taxation (+1C villages and towns)

Theo, Guilds, and Caste for specialists vs. Military, Caste, or Serfdom for gold rush production (including projects?).

The civics seem to be reasonably balanced.

Regarding overall issues:

Lightbulbs are really weak because only sages and (to some extent) merchants actually help a city as specialists. 1 hammer from priests is pretty weak and bards for culture? - maybe for a culture victory. Engineers, of course, are great but slots are rare (unless you are Luchiurp - machinery ftw). GPs other than sages give few beakers when lightbulbing.

I use sages for archmage path, and occasionally bards for hidden/drama/commune. I hear priests can be good for lightbulbing/altars, but haven't tried them.

While I always run a hybrid economy, I find little use for GPs after an academy (if running God King), and 1-2 golden ages - unless I'm going for archmages.

I'd like to hear suggestions for additional lightbulb paths. I think this aspect of GP is underpowered.

 

[Grey Fox]

Agriculture vs Taxation (+1C villages and towns)

Theo, Guilds, and Caste for specialists vs. Military, Caste, or Serfdom for gold rush production (including projects?).

The civics seem to be reasonably balanced.

Regarding overall issues:

Lightbulbs are really weak because only sages and (to some extent) merchants actually help a city as specialists. 1 hammer from priests is pretty weak and bards for culture? - maybe for a culture victory. Engineers, of course, are great but slots are rare (unless you are Luchiurp - machinery ftw). GPs other than sages give few beakers when lightbulbing.

I use sages for archmage path, and occasionally bards for hidden/drama/commune. I hear priests can be good for lightbulbing/altars, but haven't tried them.

While I always run a hybrid economy, I find little use for GPs after an academy (if running God King), and 1-2 golden ages - unless I'm going for archmages.

I'd like to hear suggestions for additional lightbulb paths. I think this aspect of GP is underpowered.

I find that lightbulbing is underpowered past a certain range in Vanilla civ too, but that's cause the tech prices increase while the amount of beakers from specialists don't. And FfH has a higher tech cost, and it increases at a faster rate. Me myself, I love settling specialists. Usually even Great Engineers. I almost always go for a sage first for the Academy, then I either go for merchants, or sages. And in some cases an engineer/merchant hybrid as the Khazad.
The Great Library + Acadamy + Settled Great Sages + the Crown is a strong researcher.

For an Engineer city you want;

• Tablets of Bambur (so found RoK) (1 Engineer +2 GPP)
• Mines of Gal-Dur (3 Engineers +2 GPP)
• Guild of Hammers (Engineers and Great Engineers +1 Hammer, +2 GPP, Free Forge)
• Soul Forge
• Caminus Aureus (+2 GPP)
• Forge (Free from Guild of Hammers, +1 Engineer)
• Machinist's Shop (+1 Engineer)
• Code of Junil (+2 GPP)

Now that's 6 Engineers, and 10 Great Engineer points per turn. Making a total of 28 Engineer GPP per turn. (Now some of the above is pretty late game so this is just optimal)

For a Merchant city you want;

• Market (1 Merchant)
• Money Changer (1 Merchant)
• Temple of Kilmorph (1 Merchant)
• Bazaar of Mammon (3 Merchants, +2 GPP)
• Smugglers Port (if possible, 1 Merchant)
• Code of Junil (Order holy city, 1 Merchant)
• Nox Noctis (CoE holy city, 1 Merchant, +2 GPP)
• The Great Lighthouse (+2 GPP)

That's 6-9 Merchants, and 4-6 Great Merchant points, making a total of 22-33 Merchant GPP per turn.

For a Great Commander city you want;

• Form of the Titan (+2 GPP)
• Heroic Epic (+1 GPP)
• National Epic (+1 GPP, +100% GPP)
• Ride of Nine Kings (+2 GPP)
• The Dragon's Hoard (+2 GPP)
• Tower of Complacency (requires OO when building, +2 GPP)
• Tower of Eyes (+2 GPP)
• Command Post (+1 GPP)
• Basilica (Order religion, +1 GPP)

Ok, that's 14 GPP, making a total of 28 Great Commander points with the Heroic Epic. It's a good idea to combine this city with one of the other specialist focuses unless you just want Commanders.
Or you can just play as the Bannor and be in the Crusade civic and all your Great People turn into commanders when you get em. At least if Nikis-Knight Quick Guide is correct still.

*Alternatively you can of course go the Guilds Civic for unlimited Engineers, Merchants, Sages and Bards.

Now, a SE where you settle all specialists is of course strongest with Sidar, and I prefer to have a majority of Great Merchants, cause that enables a larger city with more specialists +it pays for research and/or military upkeep. With a few Great Scientists and Engineers for research and production.

Prophets/Great Prophets is of course the majority of the specialists you should go for if you aim to win with the Altar.

Instead of making one super researcher with settled great sages you can of course also make multiple academies if you run a CE.

 

[Roghar]

Its only fair for lightbulbing to become less powerful as the game goes on, as placing a new GP in a city also drops in power due to fewer remaining turns to get their benefit.

I only plant a great sage in a city rather than academy if I really have no decent cities to put him in. I even love it in brand new cities that will become decent researchers down the track as the culture bonus is so useful early.

While priests, engineer and bards aren't as good for lightbulbing, their other spceial uses can be extremely important - sages should be the onyl ones really worth lightbulbing with I think. Its hard to conceive ever not settling a merchant, except for very late game

 

[onedreamer]

traits decide types of economies as well
if ive got Phi, i put a lot of effort into a single super specialist city
if im Fin, i cottage everything
if im Fin/Org, i plan on a huge empire and go with Farms/Aristocracy for quick commerce and city growth

Financial gives a bonus to anything with already 2 commerce. So Financial is not a bonus to cottages. Actually Financial is in % less effective on a Cottage than on a Aristocracy Farm or Coast tile, or a water/wind mill, and in the total output it is effective just the same with any tile producing 2 commerce. So it's not like Financial = go for cottages everywhere.

 

[onedreamer]

While I always run a hybrid economy, I find little use for GPs after an academy (if running God King), and 1-2 golden ages - unless I'm going for archmages.

4 GP in a city of just about anything are quite powerful. Great Priests for example, would total a net +8 raw hammers and +20 raw gold.

 

[nealhunt]

And there are more civs than the elves that work well with cottages.
- Bannor
- Infernals
- Grigori
- Lanun
To mention some

Fair enough, though I think those simply make CE viable, rather than preferred.

 

[Von Wibble]

Agriculture vs Taxation (+1C villages and towns)

Theo, Guilds, and Caste for specialists vs. Military, Caste, or Serfdom for gold rush production (including projects?).

The civics seem to be reasonably balanced.

But Gold Rush production can be done with a CE or SE - so these don't exactly balance things out. Priest specialists in an alter game give the production of an engineer in addition to some money so are comparable to cottages in this regard - in addition to the gpp granted. Its not as if I am meaning all farms vs all cottages in cities at any rate - I entirely agree that cities should specialise according to placement. My feel is simply that for a lot of civs, given a city in a place where either specialisation is possible the SE city is more viable.

What I don't like with lightbulbs is that the sages always want to go for alteration. Divination imo leads to much better mana types (law for maintenence and hosts of einharjar, spirit for courage and GP) so is the one I prefer to go for in most cases, for example. Some kind of choice of what to lightbulb would be nicer.

 

[Tlalynet]

A Cottadge\Forrest centered economy is a very big defence for blight if you have water magic. After I got blight the first time I found it to be a serious consideration. Leaves religion is very powerfull I think.

 

[Calavente]

Its only fair for lightbulbing to become less powerful as the game goes on, as placing a new GP in a city also drops in power due to fewer remaining turns to get their benefit.

that is theorically true..
but :
in my 2.23 game, a GS brings 1600 beakers towards a civ... I have 100 remaining turns. A setteled GS is (I don't remember) 6 beakers ?
+ scholarship (+1beaker +10%) and I settle him in a city with crown +100% and library +25%, asylum, +15%, and academy : +50% : total : +200% of 7 beakers.
total : 21 beakers per turn .. +1 hammer.

in 100t it brings 2100 B + 100H
it is worth way more than tech bulbing !!!

 

[it-ogo]

Some basics.

I'd like to use term "Improvement economy" (IE) rather then CE (cottage economy). SE means maximized food, big population and main income hammers:, , ) goes from specialists. IE means rather few population and main income goes from improvements.

The natural process is that with time accent goes from IE to SE more and more. The reasons are:
- more buildings for and are built;
- more specialist-boosting civics and wonders are accessed;
- more resources are available;
- soil and agriculture improvement (Spring, Vitalize, Sanitation, Construction).

That is inavoidable from the historical point of view.

 

[onedreamer]

I can't believe so many people think of an economic strategy (SE or CE as they are called) based on an event (Blight) that may or may not happen and whos effect spans for about 1% of the game length.

 

[SwordofStriker]

I can't believe so many people think of an economic strategy (SE or CE as they are called) based on an event (Blight) that may or may not happen and whos effect spans for about 1% of the game length.

Heh yeah. I play the Sheaim a lot and usually push the AC up, up and away. However, my last few games I have played other civs, and the AC never got over 15. Seems kind of odd to plan around something that rarely happens if you aren't the one making it happen.

 

[Vittra]

Maybe it's just because I only play Marathon, but it happens every game. I've had the AC hit 70 just as the first religion gets founded.... just because the way you play doesn't see much AC action, don't be so myopic to assume everyone uses the same settings as you and therefore doesn't see radically different games... which thusly require radically different strategies.

I've lost 20 or so farms to blight before, and lost a lot of population in my cities because of that. Not to mention a few resources, which prevented me from returning to the previous population levels.

 

[SwordofStriker]

Maybe it's just because I only play Marathon, but it happens every game. I've had the AC hit 70 just as the first religion gets founded.... just because the way you play doesn't see much AC action, don't be so myopic to assume everyone uses the same settings as you and therefore doesn't see radically different games... which thusly require radically different strategies.

I've lost 20 or so farms to blight before, and lost a lot of population in my cities because of that. Not to mention a few resources, which prevented me from returning to the previous population levels.

I only play marathon myself for the record. I was only noting that the AI never pushes up the AC in any games I play. That's right, not one. Map size doesn't seem to make a difference and I only play the longer marathon games, so it appears that it's the human players that do this. Oh yeah, and I always use the "Last Days" option also, so you'd think I'd have more AC action.

Personally, I'd like to see the Sheaim, and civs that adopt the Ashen Veil work towards Armegeddon, because they don't seem to be doing that, even when they build the Prophecy of Ragnarok. I mean seriously, what's the point of the AI building that if they're not going to push the AC up? Players could build it to stop someone else from using it, but I don't believe the AI is written that way. If they did work harder on getting the AC up, I'd be a lot more likely to play good civs and be the counter balance, but it hasn't ever proven to be necessary yet. This is on Noble difficulty by the way.

Don't get me wrong, you have to plan for blight no matter who you are. No argument there. I'm just saying that planning your entire game around it is silly. Lots of spare workers can have you up and running in no time after blight. Food heavy civs will lose population regardless, the question is, how much? Just make sure to have plenty of workers stationed around your empire when the AC is close to causing blight and even the SE players will find it's little more than a very short term nuisance.

 

[onedreamer]

even when it does happen (and it does often), the number of turns it takes to re-improve everything and get back to the previous situation is almost meaningless compared to the total number of turns.

 

[xienwolf]

Aye, marathon/Huge it is almost impossible for the Blight to never occur (almost impossible to fail seeing Wrath actually), even with default number of civs. Maybe especially with default, since that results in more Barbarian size 1 city razing.


However, in Marathon the blight is even less of an effect since it occupies you for a lower percentage of the overall turns. I know someone posted somewhere that farms can no longer spread irrigation after the blight, but I find that to be quite contrary to my experience, since the Blight typically always happens well before I am anywhere near Construction, but I spread farms everywhere I can after it easily.

All in all, Blight doesn't often effect me too much personally though. I typically have such a low happy cap when it occurs that I am incapable of starving myself out, I just have to lose all my specialists briefly while they go squeeze some food out of an undeveloped forest for a couple of turns till my workers can get around to fixing the city back up.

 

[Tlalynet]

Before I knew how watter magic and earth magic could restore terrain blight was a nightmare. Still, cottages and trees are strong, and almost uneffected is a fringe bonus.