[NFP] What existing mechanics need more work or should be fleshed out more?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by acluewithout, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    There is a thread about what’s “broken”. And there are plenty of threads suggesting brand new mechanics etc. and or balance changes.

    But, somewhat inspired by this thread, I was wondering what mechanics people think aren’t broken but need more work or should be fleshed out more?

    Maybe try to avoid suggesting actual new mechanics or solutions, and instead just focus on pointing out mechanics that are a weak or underdeveloped and why they aren’t great (although I appreciate these things or kind of blur into each other).

    And, you know, don’t mention the AI...

    For what it’s worth, my top 5 on my hit list are below.
    • Tier 3 and Tier 4 Governments. I’m a big fan of the Government and Policy System, but the T3 and T4 Governments really do feel underwhelming. The abilities are fine, and I think they are much better now they have exclusive policy cards tied to each Government (although it’s a real pain that T3 Gov policy cards can’t be used with equivalent T4 Govs). To me, it feels like these late game Governments should really do something “different”, positive and or negative, rather than just be another incremental improvement on existing Governments.
    • Governors. I’ve slowly grown to really like the Governor mechanics and I think the Governors we have are very well balanced now. But I really feel like FXS haven’t done much more with this Mechanic, beyond having one Civ (and only one) that has a unique Governor. Having the same Governors every game, for (almost) every Civ, from turn 1 is very repetitive.
    • Colonial Cities. Colonial Cities, particularly those that you settle mid and late game, really frustrate me. At this point, the game really gives you a tonne of stuff to help you settle these Cities via eg dedications, governors and policy cards; Colonial Cities have lots of unique policy cards and wonders; and lots of Cities that leverage colonial gameplay. Here’s just one problem - they just don’t seem to really add anything. Whenever I settle Colonial Cities, I don’t seem to get anything for the effort beyond more yields (I already have heaps), some era score, and maybe some new resources. I feel like Colonial Cities should do more. Indeed, one reason I love playing eg England is because at least they have some mechanics that actually make Colonial Cities a bit more dynamic. Honestly, it really frustrates me that there is so much going on with Colonial Cities but yet they still sort of suck.
    • Buildings. I’m really starting to dislike Buildings. The generally flat yields which really undermine the whole play the map approach, the lack of Alt options (except for the Encampment T1 Building, T3 Theatre Building, T3 IZ building and Neighbourhood Buildings), and just the way most of them are mechanically so boring. Banks and Stock Exchanges in particular are incredibly boring. Some are better than others - Harbours and Encampments and their buildings are good fun, as are EC buildings to an extent; IZ T2 and T3 and HS T3 have their moments. But otherwise it’s all a bit undercooked. You can chuck in my dislike of Rationalism and similar cards too. I really think Buildings need a bit of a rework, perhaps also looking at Specialists and Rationalism type cards.
    • Population, Amenities and Maintenance. I really like the housing and growth mechanics, and think how happiness and amenities are handled are great. But the game still suffers from Population just not being valuable most of the time, and happiness being too easy to maintain and not of huge value either (although I guess the -/+% happiness modifiers sometimes factor). Maintenance also just seems irrelevant. This has also got even worse now housing and amenities are even easier to get and games just have so much gold and other yields. I really hope something here gets better. I’d particularly like to see Neighbourhoods and Sewers being more relevant, because currently hey really are almost useless. It feels like the game expects you to build a lot of them, but I can rarely find a reason for doing so.
    Anyway. I’m very glad Religion got a balance pass and some new beliefs in the last Update. I was also happy with the new resources in the Update before that (corn is awesome). Indeed, it looks like, in addition to game modes and general balance changes, NFP might revisit some existing mechanics at least a little given each DLC and each free update is planned to come with some base game content. Fingers crossed.
     
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  2. montalaar

    montalaar Chieftain

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    spying.
     
  3. Linklite

    Linklite Emperor

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    Just my thoughts on this rule, but I don't know why you wish to avoid solutions. Offering criticism without constructive thoughts on potential how to fix it feels like whinging to me, and partly due to my nature, and partly due to the behaviour of a particular poster here, I feel an aversion to doing so. It's not uplifting. Also having your pwn solutions criticised can help you keep grounded. People forget how hard it can be to come up with a decent mechanic or even balance stuff, having your "simple and easy" fixes shown to not be simple nor easy nor even a fix reminds you of that.

    Just some thoughts on that rule. I have some thoughts on what could be improved or reworked (and I'm also comfortable with the idea that my solutions aren't the optimal ones), but I, personally, don't feel comfortable criticising someone else's work when I'm not sticking my neck out at least a little too.
     
  4. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Well, I was hoping to not have the thread relegated to the wasteland that is the Ideas & Suggestions forum. But I needn’t have worried...

    Oh well!
     
  5. Myomoto

    Myomoto King

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    I would really like to see luxury resources get some kind of rework. I think this would add to both your point of colonial cities and amenities.

    Right now luxuries are tied to different continents (I think each continent gets 4 luxury resources). I would like to see a few changes:

    1. Cluster luxury resources more tightly on the map, so access to a specific resource becomes more competitive.
    2. Give resources unique bonuses besides amenities. For example, having access to coffee or tea boosts all science/culture yields in your cities by 5%, having access to marble boosts wonder production by 10% in all cities, etc.
    3. Make some resources more rare than others, and teach the AI to value them more highly.
    Right now all the luxuries are equal and interchangeable. If getting specific resources was crucial to success, there would be a bigger incentive to settle colonial cities, or to go to war and steal away valuable luxury producing cities.
     
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  6. Hawke9

    Hawke9 Warlord

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    I would really like a new take on both the World Congress and the Culture victory. I really miss the culture/tourism stats from civ V.

    I think Tall should also be a more viable strategy. Right now the player with the most cities is usually the strongest.
     
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  7. Sirsquier

    Sirsquier Warlord

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    Really think the corpse and armies along with naming units should be reworked.

    Corpses and armies need to have more people in their art. It's a small fix.
    I love naming units and feel that doing so should give you some things.
    1. For every 10 named units you get +5% production toward units (Sort of like the soldiers are inspired by these named units)
    2. If a named unit dies and another unit of that type (ranged, melee, ect.) is produced they can take it's name automatically but don't count toward the 10 units until it reaches 2 promotions, this unit earns +5% XP to those promotions. (This makes it feel more realistic with unit naming, just bc everyone got killed doesn't mean that the unit name is discarded.)
     
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  8. The googles do nothing

    The googles do nothing King

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    I would like to see the available modifiers and effects in the game code fleshed out and expanded. Specifically around the areas of trade routes and maintenance costs. Even if they are not used in the base game it would open up modding possibilities.

    Buildings really should change the way things work in that city - and if you don't want than you are disinctivsed from buiding the building. For Banks allow the purchase of buildings over 30 turns, collect income for each farm and neighborhood in the city. Give Arenas income based on each trade route coming into a city. Create some workshop replacements that allows you to 'export' your resources by adding to the yield of trade routes.
     
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  9. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    I think combat needs to be fleshed out more.

    I would like to see the following:
    - Ability to attach siege units like catapults to melee units. We can attach battering rams but why not catapults or cannons?
    - Add more units to fill in holes. Add a bronze age swordsman that is weaker but does not require iron. Add trebuchet unit. Add a 1800's rifleman unit.
    - Add unit "morale" where each time a unit loses a battle, it loses a little bit of morale and if morale falls too low, it might desert, surrender or get captured. But each time, it wins a battle, morale increases. High morale will grant combat strength and units never surrender or desert.
    - Add supply lines.
     
  10. MrRadar

    MrRadar Emperor

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    Production and industrialization (including the role of railroads). Now you can still win Deity games while completely ignoring IZs. There should not even be a debate whether or not to build IZs, you simply should not afford not to build them if you wanted to stay relevant in the late game. Now you can still build sophisticated stuff like modern armour and spaceships from raw stone and timber. Ugh...

    Specialised labour should be given its due role and significance. Also more adjacency correlation between districts, like Encampment-IZ-Harbour, Campus-IZ-Spaceport, etc.

    Tech tree could also use a remake to have some sense and reason be breathed into it.

    And diplomacy, of course. Now it is merely rudimentary and even that is badly coded, like kicking your liberating troops out of the territory of the just liberated and freshly independent friendly entity. Or kicking your units out from the territory of your ally or friend with whom you had open borders before you have the opportunity to renew that. Ugh... What is it with that unit teleportation, anyway? I wish they looked back to Civ III for ideas in this respect.
     
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  11. darkace77450

    darkace77450 Emperor

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    I'd say specialists are still at the top of my list. If a building added a GPP when worked, then a large city with enough population to work every building in a district would produce the same number of GPP as two small cities with districts and buildings. If I could get the same GPP out of a 16 population city as someone else gets out of two 4 population cities then I'd say that's a step in the right direction.

    With the exception of Moksha[1], I don't think governors need much in the way of fine-tuning. That said, I would love another governor or two. I was bummed to learn that Ibrahim is exclusive to the Ottomans. Most of the niches have already been filled, but I think there's room for a mariner-type governor that boosts coastal cities via coastal infrastructure, maritime trade, naval production, and oceanic national parks.

    [1] I think Moksha needs an early bonus that benefits non-Religious Victories. A faith equivalent to Reyna's Forestry Management, though unimaginative, would be useful to everyone regardless of intended victory condition.
     
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  12. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I don’t have a clear idea what Buildings should do beyond “no more flat yields”.

    There are a few things I’d like to see, although I’m not all that bothered either way. First, I think a few more buildings could probably buff workable tiles - Workshop buffing eg Iron and Horses would be an obvious one, with perhaps an alt building that buffs different resources.

    Second, I think some buildings could maybe interact with Policy Cards, Governors and or Continents more. Banks and Stock Exchanges eg could maybe give gold based on whether you have a Governors and or are on a foreign continent, or maybe you have policy cards that influence their yields.

    Third, I think +% could probably be tied to some buildings too. You could of course have flat +% bonuses, but you could also have them tied to other mechanics like Ages, Happiness or even Adjacencies. eg maybe Banks give +% Gold and Science during Golden Ages; maybe Universities give +% Science equal time their Adjacencies (so a +3 Campus gives +3% Science).

    I’d like to see Rationalism (and similar cards) and Specialists also get another look as part of this. One option might be for Rationalism to actually work on Specialists not Buildings. eg maybe Rationalism gives +% Science and GPP per Specialists.

    Anyway. Short point is that there’s is plenty they could do with Buildings other than flat yields.


    I’ve suggested elsewhere having new Governors that unlock mid to late game linked to certain T2 to T3 Governors. So, you might have a Colonialism Themed Governor unlock with Merchant Republic, and Communist, Fascist and Democratic Themed Governors unlock at the T3 Governments.

    I think there could also be a few more unique governors via Civs. There’s a great Mod that gives the Aztecs a Governor. Not saying every Civ should get a Governor, but there could be a few more tied to existing or new Civs.

    On the topic of Governments, I’d also like to see some Unique World Wonders, Units and Buildings tied to certain Governments.
     
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  13. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    I would really enjoy some of the bonuses involved with being in t3 & 4 changed to be qualitative instead of just "ball of stats coming at ya!" because for example: Corporate Libertarianism can at best get you 20% production in some cities, and the extra resource. But you mostly only build projects... And technocracy gives you 30% to projects and 3 power in all cities which frees up resources. And has better card distribution. And effectively no downside.
    So the ball of stats model means some will just be better. There's not a lot of nuance around the choices.
    I would never suggest this but "industrial zones can defend" was the just before release or release effect of communism. That would really shake up my game! You could go really wild with t4.

    I also dislike the flat yields. But I think the city center is really not fleshed out as a mechanic. There's almost nothing to build in it (it would be a great place for the forge/stable/mint etc style buildings from civ5.) It just feels like the city center needs some more buildings to build a sense of progression. Maybe a line that only gets unlocked as you have enough pops or districts down. IDK, but it's just so lonely and hollow now. Maybe a special building if you had a particular high adjacency district in the city, or something.
     
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  14. Aurelesk

    Aurelesk Prince

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    I would like more balanced slot distribution of card overall, and maybe +1 card slot, while being at the same time more impactful. Legacy card should have long lasting use (+4 CS or +1 Amenity/Housing are for more superior than +4 to all yield), and maybe more exclusive policy for different focus and making more decisive early choice.

    For example: Chiefdom could be a 1110 (this need early diplomatic card), and going to the first 3 governement should be a 2111 (Oligarchy), 1211 (Republic) or 1121 (Autocracy) distribution. Monarchy should come at the same time with the other two governments, and with a 1222 (Merchant), 2122 (Monarchy) or 2212 (Theocracy). Then something starting to be more specialised like 1233 (Democracy), 2313 (Communism) and 3123 (Facism) and finally end to a 3314 / 3134 / 1334 distribution.

    Diplomatic Card should be more diverse and have way more card about Spies, City State, Governor, Alliance and Loyalty. It also need to have more use. For example, they could work on Grievance, Amenity, and have a lot of catch-up policy like: reducing cost of already discovered technologies / civic by other civilization, being less vulnerable to Tourism, catch-up in the space race, better defend your religion inside your territory, and be something on the world congress way earlier (+ diplomatic favor, double free vote, diplomatic refund, +% production toward emergency project...).
     
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  15. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Agree some of the “ball of stat” bonuses are problematic. There really is a lot more that could be done with T3 and T4 Governments, particularly if they’re allowed to have unique buildings, units, wonders and governors in addition to unique policies. There’s also possibilities like have T3 and T4 Governments change how some Adjacencies work, or giving them unique Casus Belli or Alliance types. T3 and T4 really could be much more game changing.

    Also agree re City Centre buildings. It doesn’t help that some existing City Centre buildings are so lacklustre, particularly Sewers. There’s probably a sweet spot not to go past where you have too many City Centre buildings, but I think a few more would be a good idea. I’m actually a bit sorry the Market Place and Shopping Mall weren’t City Centre buildings.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
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  16. civfan_999

    civfan_999 Chieftain

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    This one drives me insane. I will go to war with a civ to liberate one or more city states. I will take and liberate the city state, and they will kick one or more of my units not back into safe territory on the side of the map I came from, but forward into enemy territory. Those units, being out of movement from their efforts in the liberation that turn, are now stuck in horrible positions, maybe in range of cities and encampments in addition to units, and sometimes I loose those units.

    I just liberated the city state and am now its suzerain, why oh why does it do that to me!?
     
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  17. civfan_999

    civfan_999 Chieftain

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    Agreed. This was better balanced in 5. Yes, more cities meant more yields, population, and buildings, but it also mean the amount of culture and science to get to the next level was higher. It's been a long time since I've played 5, but I recall 5% extra per city? Maybe that is wrong. At any rate, it made there be tradeoffs. Now it is clear that spamming settlers early game is the optimal strategy.
     
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  18. civfan_999

    civfan_999 Chieftain

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    Maybe you could add the people to the civics tree? For example, you don't unlock access to the religious guy until you get a certain religious focused civic. Maybe you get the diplomat with the first civic that awards an envoy. Something like that?

    I do agree that some tweaks here would make things more interesting.
     
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  19. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    I suspect it’s not really a return to civ5 tall that people would enjoy, as much as just wanting some way to keep investing in & specializing their cities beyond building 1 district for each yield.
    The gameplay consequence is that the only thing you can invest in to grow your empire’s power, is more settlers.
    Which is why I mentioned the city center - but in general the “city” is a pretty underdeveloped concept in civ6. They currently are a container to hold ownership of districts and tile yields, but they themselves don’t have much character beyond that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
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  20. earlofbrigand

    earlofbrigand Chieftain

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    The World Congress is an irritation.

    City States need more work - proper alliances, guarantees and potential vassalisation should be on the cards. The Guarantee is something that would work well - free envoys in return for being called to war if they are attacked.
     
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