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What factors lead to unhappiness due to ideology?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by RRtexasranger, Jul 10, 2013.

  1. RRtexasranger

    RRtexasranger Warlord

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    I can't seem to find it in the Civiliopedia.
     
  2. amnslkr

    amnslkr Chieftain

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    Just from playing my first game, I thought it had to do with your overall happiness. I don't have anything to back this up, but I just know that I had a ton of happiness while other civs that were unhappy ended up revolting and chaging ideologies to match mine.

    I'm also not certain, but it looks as if maybe the tourism aspect may play a part in it as well, as high tourism seems to influence other civilizations. It's a very intersting and welcome mechanic to the game, and I almost peed my pants when I essentialy cultured flipped a city from the Huns when they held a different ideology than mine and were quite unhappy.
     
  3. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Their Influence level with you - Your influence level with them (influence leve over someone is based on tourism/culture... 0%+Unknown, 10%+ is Exotic, 30%+Familiar, 50%+Popular, 100%+Influential, 200%+Dominant)

    Unknown=0
    Exotic=1
    Familiar=2
    Popular=3
    Influential=4
    Dominant=5

    So if the
    Celts-Order, Poland-Freedom, China-Freedom, india Autocracy

    Celts are Dominant over Poland=5
    Poland is Familiar over Celts=2

    Then Poland will see
    Order
    Celts: 3 hammers (5-2)

    China is Dominant over Poland=5
    Poland is Exotic over China=1

    Then Poland will see
    Freedom
    China: 4 torches (5-1)

    India is Familiar over Poland=2
    Poland is Unknown over India=0

    Then Poland will see
    Autocracy
    India: 2 swords (2-0)


    Total Order Pressure=3
    Total Freedom Pressure=4
    Total Autocracy Pressure=2

    So for Poland it is
    Their Ideology(freedom)=4
    Others (autocracy+order)=5

    So Poland has some Ideological Unhappiness
    Dissidents=1 per city OR 1 per 10 pop
    Civil Disorder=2 per city OR 1 per 5 pop
    Revolutionary wave=4 per city OR 1 per 3 pop
     
  4. RRtexasranger

    RRtexasranger Warlord

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  5. BluegrassGeek

    BluegrassGeek Warlord

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    Basically, if someone has a different ideology than you, your Tourism/Culture determines who is getting the most unhappiness. Culture lets you resist outside change, Tourism pushes change on your neighbors.

    The other civs factor in, too. If you're the minority Ideology, you're getting pressure from all the other civs. On the flip side, if other civs share your Ideology, it applies more pressure to those with different ones. The major factor is your Culture/Tourism, though.

    Edit: Ninjaed! That's what I get for leaving the computer and posting without reloading the thread. :D
     
  6. SamBC

    SamBC Emperor

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    Your level of influence on other civs has no direct effect on public opinion unhappiness. It's down to the level of influence on you of other civs. For each ideology, it finds the civ with the most influence on you. That determines the number of fists for that ideology.

    The number of fists for the two other ideologies (other than the one you have) is compared to the number of fists for the ideology you chose. The difference of that determines the per-city and per-pop unhappiness that are calculated (and whichever of the two is greater is applied).

    I'm pretty sure about that. Especially the first paragraph.
     
  7. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Maddjinn went over it in his portugal game.

    Every civ with more influence on you, than you have on them gives pressure for that civs ideology. The amount of pressure (torches, hammers or swords) they put on you is their influence on you minus your influence on them (using categories).

    Then you compare your ideology to the other 2.

    If yours is less, then you get some of the Public Opinion Unhappiness.

    (look like 1 or 2 more than yours->Dissidents, 3 or 4->Civil Resistance, 5 or more->Revolutionary Wave)
     
  8. SamBC

    SamBC Emperor

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    Sorry, you're right, I'd misunderstood something.
     
  9. pilot00

    pilot00 King

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    Just a note, the earlier thing that can produce tourism (thereby net you influence) is the Parthenon since it comes with a pre-filled slot.
     
  10. Laurwin

    Laurwin Prince

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    So, basically this makes playing autocracy useless.

    Because I get always like -30 happiness or whatever.

    I want to play an autocracy game, but how do I resist the pressure put on my own civ?

    My culture is kind of crappy, tourism also. I picked autocracy as a wide Russia. I expanded into GODLIKE lands of Morocco and Germany. My own Russian starting area was crappy, and I was sandwiched in this location between India and Netherlands.

    So, I did the logical thing and went to seize some juicy territory from the opressive Moroccans and Germans. All went well. I picked autocracy because I never tried it before in BNW.

    I had had to walk a thin line with the pop control up this point. I had tradition opener, partially filled commerce, and autocracy opened. I had plenty of lux available and was debating whether to fill out rest of commerce or go to autocracy (autocracy has really good bonuses for wide empire - like I said wide empire doesnt have so much culture - I got autocracy from early factories)

    So I was just like growing my cities up to size 16, being peaceful and upgrading my troops - bam, now your empire is -10 unhappy. WTF?

    Apparently my people want order instead of autocracy, because Gandhi picked order or something. That was a ton of hammers and gold spent on castles, armories etc... now I just lose all that happiness. Bah what a mechanic... (that's literally -36 happiness clamour for new ideology, what's wrong with autocracy my Russian subjects you should be happy damn you!)
     
  11. michaeljhuman

    michaeljhuman Chieftain

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    I just won on King with Freedom. I did a lot of stuff to keep happiness around +30. I only had 5 cities. I got key wonders. I did deals. I explored fully. I built most happiness buildings. And I built most culture buildings and some culture wonders. My dissidents were at -10.
     
  12. Erelich

    Erelich Chieftain

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    If you're getting that much unhappiness from ideology pressure it's mostly likely because you neglected culture too much. Culture is your defense against other civs tourism and ideology pressure. I've found if you just get all your guilds up and staff them + ally a culture CS or two then you should be fine. Also, never give the AI open borders if they're generating tourism. If you really need to go through their territory, it's better to buy open borders from them rather than trade open borders for open borders. Also, try and make your ideology the world ideology through the world congress. At least up to emperor, you can propose this before other civs have even adopted their own ideology so unless everyone hates you, it should pass pretty easily.

    All three ideology trees have tenets that increase happiness so you can overcome unhappiness from ideology pressure aslong as it doesn't get too high (the unhappiness will increase the more you are influenced by other ideologies).

    In short:
    Don't neglect culture, not matter what VC you're going for
    Never sell/give open borders to an AI that is generating tourism
    Get the World Congress to pass your ideology as the world ideology if possible
    Take the ideology tenets that give happiness even if you don't need it right now, to battle future ideology pressure from other civs
     
  13. Buridan

    Buridan Chieftain

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    I think it would be helpful if someone made a thread in war academy about this explaining it extensively
     
  14. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

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    Ideological unhappiness is the accumulation of all the influence deltas you have with each civ you have met that has an ideology when you have an ideology yourself.
     
  15. RobO

    RobO King

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    I picked up Civ5 yesterday after a pause, with BnW, and got hit by what appears to be an Ideology happiness bomb. It is an exercise in frustration. I have changed between all three ideologies to no avail. I have 20+ unhappiness no matter what I do. And I cannot figure out using the in-game help what to do.

    I then read here that my culture and tourism probably is too low. But how do I get a comparison of my culture/tourism and that of the AI civs? I can't find that either. Something as important as this should be explained in-game.

    This is close to being a turnoff for Civ5 for me. It appears they implemented a feature in BnW that had some serious side effects they did not catch before release.

    Can someone help, or should I give up on this game?
     
  16. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    If you go to the culture overview screen, you will see four tabs. The first two tabs show your great works by city and the second tab is where you can trade trade great works of writing, art and artifacts.

    The last two tabs are crucial to your situation, and you need to spend some quality time examining those tabs (most importantly the tooltip info provided). The last tab is particularly important, because it allows you to view the culture/influence situation from any civ's viewpoint, not just your own viewpoint.

    In general, you need to eliminate (or at least reduce) influence disparities between you and civs following other ideologies. That requires pumping your tourism to get to the next level of influence with other civs, and pumping your culture (bulbing a Great Writer or two may help there). You also need to examine tourism multipliers (open borders, trade routes, shared religion and ideology) from both sides -- are there things you can do in the short term to boost your multipliers with other civs and eliminate other civs' multipliers with you?
     
  17. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Having to change ideologies is not a severe penalty. You only lose a couple turns and SP that you got for free. I have not had to switch ideologies twice though, and every time switching solved my happiness problem.

    Maybe you switched too soon? Even with sever happiness problems, I hold off switching for about as long as I can. Also, I pretty committed to the NW. Do you have the Hermitage completed by the time you get to Ideologies?

    No, its an interesting game aspect that is pretty well balanced.
     
  18. RobO

    RobO King

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    Thanks. I read up on this a bit, including the Ideology guide (not quite done with it yet). I think part of the problem is that it hits you suddenly with no warning, and the effect is quite serious. I was at the weakest level (dissident), but got hit with -15 happiness suddenly with no explanation. I changes from Freedom to Autocracy (that's what the people wanted, I had no choice), and the problem went away for a while. Suddenly it popped up again - now they wanted to go back to freedom. I complied, but it didnøt help. Then they wanted to go to Order, and a bit later back to Autocracy. I still had no idea what was happening. Very frustrating.

    I found the culture/tourism screen. Both are a bit low for my civ, but not terribly so. There's another civ with less culture than me (small map, 6 civ in total). There's also one with less tourism than me. And I really don't understand why my culture and tourism is low, I have tried to not neglect it. But that's something I can remedy - my problem with the game is getting hit with a sledgehammer out of nowhere without explanation.

    I expanded carefully, making sure that my happiness seldom went below zero. I was not aware that I needed a buffer of ca +15. It seems excessive. I apparently expanded too much. I did not have Hermitage built.
     
  19. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Yes, it the happiness crash can be an unpleasant surprise.

    There are a few aspects of the game that seem arbitrary (and ugly) the first time they happen. Ideology pressure is definitely one of those. I certainly pay more attention to coliseums in BNW than I did with GnK.

    If I open Freedom, I work it until I get the 6 free Foreign Legions. That way I am cutting my losses if I have to switch. With Order, I hold out at least until all the half-price factories are done. The happiness problems are manageable until they hit -20. By then, the ideological pressure should have stabilized enough that you at least only have to switch once. It might be worth the time experimenting with a save from before you first switched. What if you had stayed in Freedom?
     
  20. RobO

    RobO King

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    I've switched back to a save a bit before my Ideology choice. Will see how far I get,

    It's obviously a steep learning curve. I had no idea BnW was so different.

    Now, in the replay I chose Order, the same as my Neighbor Rome. The Iroquis chose Freedom and had about -5 happiness from that - not a big deal as they had more then 20 to begin with.
    After a while Morocco chose Autocracy. They are clearly the most influential of all 6 civs. Immediately, I lost 12 happiness. This is silly. The happiness of the people simply should not change that fast. It does not feel right (to me). I'll sleep on it - but I expect I'll have to find another game to play, unless there is a way to remove Ideologies from the game.

    Is there a way to get rid of them?
     

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