See screen shots. 2nd is Pre herbalism. 1st is with Herbalism.
From what I can see is, it's been made worthless. Even with Herbalism it's a wash. Why bother building it?
This massive at game start is getting wearisome. It makes no sense to have a build that gives 1 +Yuck and then +1 Health, or +1 food and then +1 food eaten. It just raises the number of each in the totals and does nothing else.
I'm done building things like this. It's a waste of game time. Same goes for tide pools and Mushrooms now. The only food producing build in the 1st 3000 game years is root tubers! Incredulous!
And Oh Yeah silly me, I'm supposed to overcome this by killing animals. So far its stonethrowers 4 and animals 3 (2 stone throwers and a wanderer). Please fix this, Please!
See screen shots. 2nd is Pre herbalism. 1st is with Herbalism.
From what I can see is, it's been made worthless. Even with Herbalism it's a wash. Why bother building it?
This massive at game start is getting wearisome. It makes no sense to have a build that gives 1 +Yuck and then +1 Health, or +1 food and then +1 food eaten. It just raises the number of each in the totals and does nothing else.
I'm done building things like this. It's a waste of game time. Same goes for tide pools and Mushrooms now. The only food producing build in the 1st 3000 game years is root tubers! Incredulous!
And Oh Yeah silly me, I'm supposed to overcome this by killing animals. So far its stonethrowers 4 and animals 3 (2 stone throwers and a wanderer). Please fix this, Please!
Are these not pre herbalism screenshots? You build them either because you have enough health due to forests, and lack of swamps etc., or to have them ready for when you get herablism, at which point each one is a net one extra food.
Are these not pre herbalism screenshots? You build them either because you have enough health due to forests, and lack of swamps etc., or to have them ready for when you get herablism, at which point each one is a net one extra food.
AS I stated, the 1st screen is just after I got Herbalism. The 2nd screen is Before herbalism, from game start to herbalism.
So No they are not both pre Herb.
I have a 3rd screenshot I could post of what the Berry bush gives 3000 years After herbalism and IT is in line with what Hydro said, Somewhere around 7000BC to 6000bc. Might have been after Cultural ID or it was at Shelter building.
This changed back in version 21 to what I'm posting about. If I have to wait till Herbalism to get a source of food other than building only gatherers how else am I supposed to grow my capital city?
Because this has changed and so did the other bldgs I mentioned my Capital was actually stagnant for a period of time Even with using my free gatherer on a grass tile by a river for a +1 food. My capital city reach Pop 2 at 6600BC. This is way too long to get to 2 (even with stationing a Scout on a forested hill just outside my border and him killing every animal that attacked him). It reached Pop 3 at 5280 BC. I got Tribalism at 5400BC. And my 1st tribe was built by 4400 BC right before I got Hunting.
This is the Order of the techs I've researched: Nomad Life, Gatherer, Cave Dwelling (and what good is a Wonder that gives +1 trade routes when you've not even met another AI Or have the ability to have a 2nd City), Lang., Coop., Oral Trad., Weaving, Scavenge, Persist Hunt, Tracking, Herbalism, Preh Music, Preh Dance, Ritualism, Cult ID (7480BC), Tool Making, Stone Tools, Fine edge, Microlith, Shelter Bldg, Axe making, Carving, Wood working, Carpentry, Tribalism (5400BC), Basketry, Trapping, Flint Knap, Fire making, Cooking, Hunting (4320BC), Bone working, Nat. Pigmnt, Petroglyphs, Personal adorn.,Bead making, (I would normally do Shamanism here but the AI beat me to it so I skipped it), Barter, Tattoo, Spear making, Warfare, and finally Chiefdom during which I founded my 3rd city at 2480BC.
So because of the excessive yuck and low food, even with killing scads of animals, I'm only at 3 cities when i should have been able to found twice that number. This is why I keep saying City Limits are now redundant and Not necessary any more and I'm not playing with it On either. You succeeded admirably is killing off my expansionist style of play in the early game. You've tamed this city spammer into submission and removed some of my fun. The 2nd X in this 4X game is now humbled and shackled into a more plodding pace.
The "actual" states correctly that he gets +1 health, +1 unhealth, +1 food lost, and +1 food gained.
This is because you are already Unhealthy in your city. Had you NOT been unhealthy in your city the "actual" would have correctly stated +1 health, +1 unhealth, +1 food gained.
There are lots of times I've been able to utilize Berry Bushes to good effect even pre-Fire Making and Cooking (+ extra health in cities and + extra health buildings, most times netting my cities to healthy status).
Post-Fire Making and Cooking it's almost always worth building it as it doesn't get obsolete until Agriculture, which for me on Eternity takes ages to get to.
Can I ask what changed to stop your expansion? As far as I knew the only way to expand pre-Tribalism was via conquest, and post-Tribalism it's still possible to expand rather rapidly.
I founded my second city in my current game at 3760BC, third at 3575BC, and fourth at 3120BC, no conquests. At 2480BC I had my 6th city founded (2450BC). I suppose it could be the luck of the "dice" when the world is created. After all it's certainly not created equal but I'm not finding fast expansion stifled that much in the early game.
Oh, and this is with arbitrary City Limits active and with full Wasted Food active, not the changed to 50% Koshling added. I changed that manually back myself (and I love expanding fast and furiously) because I thought it balanced the game out more. Without those two options active I would have been able to expand a lot more.
Keep up the good work Joseph but, ehm, sorry, choose your battles a little better, please. A single lowly building isn't worth getting riled up about. *smile*
Oh, reminds me: Cave Dwelling, that one's extra Trade Route was once upon a time actually possible to utilize, before Communalism was added, with the "-1 Trade Routes per City".
You just had to have someone nearby with a size 2 city (or Never Raze game Option on) and conquer it. Then you had a trade route in your city.
Now though it's totally redundant so that part of the Cave Dwelling should be removed. I think I actually posted something about that way back during the earlier days of C2C.
Glad you brought that up and hopefully the Team will remove that redundant trade route.
AS I stated, the 1st screen is just after I got Herbalism. The 2nd screen is Before herbalism, from game start to herbalism.
So No they are not both pre Herb.
I have a 3rd screenshot I could post of what the Berry bush gives 3000 years After herbalism and IT is in line with what Hydro said, Somewhere around 7000BC to 6000bc. Might have been after Cultural ID or it was at Shelter building.
This changed back in version 21 to what I'm posting about. If I have to wait till Herbalism to get a source of food other than building only gatherers how else am I supposed to grow my capital city?
Because this has changed and so did the other bldgs I mentioned my Capital was actually stagnant for a period of time Even with using my free gatherer on a grass tile by a river for a +1 food. My capital city reach Pop 2 at 6600BC. This is way too long to get to 2 (even with stationing a Scout on a forested hill just outside my border and him killing every animal that attacked him). It reached Pop 3 at 5280 BC. I got Tribalism at 5400BC. And my 1st tribe was built by 4400 BC right before I got Hunting.
This is the Order of the techs I've researched: Nomad Life, Gatherer, Cave Dwelling (and what good is a Wonder that gives +1 trade routes when you've not even met another AI Or have the ability to have a 2nd City), Lang., Coop., Oral Trad., Weaving, Scavenge, Persist Hunt, Tracking, Herbalism, Preh Music, Preh Dance, Ritualism, Cult ID (7480BC), Tool Making, Stone Tools, Fine edge, Microlith, Shelter Bldg, Axe making, Carving, Wood working, Carpentry, Tribalism (5400BC), Basketry, Trapping, Flint Knap, Fire making, Cooking, Hunting (4320BC), Bone working, Nat. Pigmnt, Petroglyphs, Personal adorn.,Bead making, (I would normally do Shamanism here but the AI beat me to it so I skipped it), Barter, Tattoo, Spear making, Warfare, and finally Chiefdom during which I founded my 3rd city at 2480BC.
So because of the excessive yuck and low food, even with killing scads of animals, I'm only at 3 cities when i should have been able to found twice that number. This is why I keep saying City Limits are now redundant and Not necessary any more and I'm not playing with it On either. You succeeded admirably is killing off my expansionist style of play in the early game. You've tamed this city spammer into submission and removed some of my fun. The 2nd X in this 4X game is now humbled and shackled into a more plodding pace.
I think the easiest way to accommodate this is just to add a 'high growth' game option, which just basically (in effect, though it wouldn't be implemented this way) drops the difficulty levels all civs play on (including the AI) by a few notches in the health and happiness (and probably maintenance for number of cities) categories, without changing the setting from the actual difficulty level for research or production.
The actual simplest implementation would just be to globally (entire game, including AI and barbs) apply an extra 2 (say) baseline health and happiness, and globally apply a fixed percentage discount to city maintenance due to number of cities (and instability for those that play with REV on). Could also apply a divisor to growth requirements also.
The main thing (from my perspective anyway) is to find a way to do it that doesn't require us to run different mechanics for the variants, just different values plugged in to the same mechanics. That way there no additional maintenance overhead.
This is the Order of the techs I've researched: Nomad Life, Gatherer, Cave Dwelling (and what good is a Wonder that gives +1 trade routes when you've not even met another AI Or have the ability to have a 2nd City), Lang., Coop., Oral Trad., Weaving, Scavenge, Persist Hunt, Tracking, Herbalism, Preh Music, Preh Dance, Ritualism, Cult ID (7480BC), Tool Making, Stone Tools, Fine edge, Microlith, Shelter Bldg, Axe making, Carving, Wood working, Carpentry, Tribalism (5400BC), Basketry, Trapping, Flint Knap, Fire making, Cooking, Hunting (4320BC), Bone working, Nat. Pigmnt, Petroglyphs, Personal adorn.,Bead making, (I would normally do Shamanism here but the AI beat me to it so I skipped it), Barter, Tattoo, Spear making, Warfare, and finally Chiefdom during which I founded my 3rd city at 2480BC.
While what you are saying sounds good, from my point of view, with out a lot of extra work, is to remove the from these early forage builds. Because wouldn't what you are proposing going to be a substantial amount of work? I have no idea what you would need to do to achieve it, but I'm sure Koshling that you are More than capable of doing what you are suggesting.
@BG,
While Berry Bushes was my example I was also including by inference the other early forage builds that also include a +1 :yuck negating the +1 . Things(formulas and weighting and the like) are starting to get maybe too convoluted and becoming too confusing. The early part of the game really doesn't need all these undercurrent correcting factors. Simple in this case is better. Remove the from these forage builds and I like the idea of dropping the baseline by 2 overall. I don't think Happiness is a real concern here and maybe doesn't need an adjustment.
Tribalism is an artifical barrier instituted to replace early settlers and push back When you could get a city founding unit, that's the 1st barrier. C2C was not always this way.
I don't mind for the Preh Era this barrier as long as my founding city can grow to later support the building of Tribes. When expansion Can take place. And quite frankly with my game setups I may have only met 1 AI by the time Tribalism is researched. So conquest isn't even a factor. It would be if I played on a small congested map. But I Like to eXplore, and I like to eXpand. Not met johhny the neighbor on the 1st turn and fighting over 1 pop cities by turn 2. That's just plain bypassed the 1st 2X's and jumped right into X's 3 and 4. This is a 4X game I would hope it stays that way.
After tribalism you need a city with at least 4 pop to start pushing tribes out at a reasonable rate. Remember I'm playing on EPIC, and by 5280 BC my Capitol and only city "should've" been up to a size 5 or 6. I got Tribalism at 5400 BC and it took me till 4400BC to get that 1st tribe out the door. And the 2nd tribe founded the 3rd city by 2840BC. At this time (2840BC) my Capitol was a pop 4, too low to push out tribes faster, not enough working tiles because too low a pop. In previous versions at 2480 BC my founding city would have had 10 pop by this date. The 1st tribe generally takes 9-14 turns depending upon the 1st cities size. Each successive tribe in older versions would take 1-2 turns less for the next one till I reached Sed. Life. Then Settlers in the founding city avg about 6 turns.
Tribalism was instituted to slow down city builders that play like I do. Plain and simple. I accepted it in good faith and learned to use it. But now with all the other growth inhibiting parts added Gameplay for me between start and tribes is kill some animals, build what little gold producing things there are and build up some tiles while the research counter clicks thru the techs till I can get a limited number (1 at a time) city building units. From 12000 BC till 4400BC was a waiting game for My game to start. So from a vanilla BtS game on Epic I gained 400 game years or 5 turns by playing the Preh Era now. And since regular settlers are now at Sed Life which I got at 1240 BC, I've actually lost a significant part of my early game play for city building (normal BtS start 4000BC - C2C Sed Life at 1240BC = 2760 Lost game years for expansion. If the turn ratio on Epic is 80 game years/turn then I've lost 34+ turns or ~ 5 to 6 settlers that could've founded cities.
I have much more to say on this but it's been a long day and it's getting harder to type, so I'll close for now.
I've used that path before too. And I'll use it again. But still doesn't address the issue if you want or Need to research a different path for your particular game. Plus SO is adding techs and tech pathing is changing again.
The "actual" states correctly that he gets +1 health, +1 unhealth, +1 food lost, and +1 food gained.
This is because you are already Unhealthy in your city. Had you NOT been unhealthy in your city the "actual" would have correctly stated +1 health, +1 unhealth, +1 food gained.
The post-herbalism "actual" text is actually wrong. There is no +1 used food, whether the city is already unhealthy or not. The +1 health counters the +1 unhealth so there is no extra food usage. The only actual effect of the building is +1 food. When you build it, that is all you really get. There is also the entirely inconsequential bumping up by 1 of both health and unhealth. There is never any additional food used from building this building once you have Herbalism. (You might not actually get any extra food due to food waste since the +1 food from the building might make the city cross the threshold for wasting one more food resulting in an actual food per turn gain of nothing, but that is an entirely separate thing.)
The "actual effects" text is wrong. My theory as to why: this is because it is not summing up all of the sources of health and unhealth provided by the building before determining the actual net health or unhealth for the building. It is just processing the +1 unhealth from the building and combining that single property with "the city currently has no extra health points" and giving the +1 used food, never checking to see that the building itself will give +1 heath due to having the Herbalism tech when doing this evaluation. It is just separately evaluating those two different +health and +unhealth factors instead of combining them for the correct net effect. That's my theory, anyway (I haven't looked at the actual code to make sure, but this is almost certainly the problem).
Joseph, I am sad to say but all your complaining is because you play bad, not because the game is balanced bad all over (although some things need to be reformed of course).
What I read from your posts is: you waste units, you don't set good tech paths
[you went for cultural identity asap but a few production and food building increasing techs would have brought you closer to the 5/6 pop cap with tribalism + having increased science by higher commerce of higher pop over time repays! Try to start first golden age 1 turn before mysticism maybe]
you don't understand how to grow cities intelligently (although the gold problems you had were a bug) - and all of that besides the fact that you have no close enemy to fight. Really?
I see that you like it simple but why the heck you play this mod, on unbalanced settings and wish to change the balanced part of the mod (I don't think you want this but it looks that way)? For players like you who are unable to adept, there is either settler difficulty or civ 5 and if I could give you my steam version without giving my account I would, cause I don't play that anymore
[to contradict myself I did play Civ5 two days ago against a friend and I won so hard because of 'C2C thinking' but it was no fun as it was too simple].
Joseph, I am sad to say but all your complaining is because you play bad, not because the game is balanced bad all over (although some things need to be reformed of course).
What I read from your posts is: you waste units, you don't set good tech paths you don't understand how to grow cities intelligently (although the gold problems you had were a bug) - and all of that besides the fact that you have no close enemy to fight. Really?
I see that you like it simple but why the heck you play this mod, on unbalanced settings and wish to change the ballenced part of the mod (I don't think you want this but it looks that way)? For players like you who are unable to adept, there is eitehr settler difficulty or civ 5 and if I could give you my steam version without giving my account I would, cause I don't play that anymore [to contradict myself I did play Civ5 two days ago against a friend and I won so hard because of 'C2C thinking' but it was no fun as it was too simple).
If you disagree with another poster fine, say so, and make your counter-points and move on. But degenerating into 'you suck' posts isn't going to help anyone. You are free to ignore content you don't agree with, and argue with the modders if they take up elements you have specific issues with, which you can express in terms of the game. Please leave personal issues at the door.
Having said that I will make another (personal) statement, which is that I find the majority of BOTH Joseph's AND DRJ's posts useful. Sometimes I agree with things that are said, sometimes I do not, but you both spend a lot of time contributing your observations and suggestions, which is always useful feedback. Something that violently disagrees with any particular view (be it my own, or that of another poster) is no less valid as feedback, and serves to remind the modders that there is a diversity in the player-base.
Yeah youre right I should just ignore him. Its just because I don't like people to try to break parts of the game I like to keep. As long as they become game options I don't mind.
For instance, I like carrion although I hardly get to build it. But I don't like someone trying to make it go away.^^
I've Never asked for the builds similar to Carrion/Berry Bushes/etc being taken away Or out, just modified to get back to more level playing field. Like they used to be.
You have made many erroneous statements about me and my way of playing. The inference being that my style and way should be eliminated, because I don't "know how to play" in your eyes. Everyone that is a long time member of this community for this mod Knows I play on Noble level exclusively because I play test to give feedback. To be on the same level as the AI, an unbiased playing field between player and AI. You are a relative newcomer to this Mod and you should really consider that before you criticize and debase some one else's style.
Let me ask you this one question: Do you still EM or PM with Afforess? I do. That should tell you something.
Neither do I, has that occurred to you that you are attempting to do the same for ppl that play similar to my style?
I've Never asked for the builds similar to Carrion/Berry Bushes/etc being taken away Or out, just modified to get back to more level playing field. Like they used to be.
You have made many erroneous statements about me and my way of playing. The inference being that my style and way should be eliminated, because I don't "know how to play" in your eyes. Everyone that is a long time member of this community for this mod Knows I play on Noble level exclusively because I play test to give feedback. To be on the same level as the AI, an unbiased playing field between player and AI. You are a relative newcomer to this Mod and you should really consider that before you criticize and debase some one else's style.
Let me ask you this one question: Do you still EM or PM with Afforess? I do. That should tell you something.
One last answer as you said some things that I like to respond to.
I am not new to this mod, actually I am testplaying ROM/AND/C2C since ever.
Regarding Afforess, I don't know why he never wanted to expand his mod further. He would fit in very nicely here.
You write your style of play is always noble because you playtest?
In my opinion (and it's not the only possible opinion): lol! real, basic playtesting should always be the highest difficluty because everything else can be balanced from there.
You can't play settler and say in deity this and this has to be the value there.
Maybe you say every difficulty needs its testing and I can agree to a certain point but I just don't understand how you can still have fun without approaching something else (there you and Afforess seem to have something in common).
I playtest to push my boundaries and those of the difficulty. You stay on the same level, saying I wanted to eliminate your play. I don't, as long as you don't try to level higher difficulties or working structures from your position. And by the way: how could I feel happy with the things I like if someone contradicts them in every way possible, hard to live with someone in the same house who acts like an old geezer and doesn't want to change behaviour or adept to new rules. I know I should respect you more but you don't make it easy. Your postings regarding what you want to have changed are often very - let's say hot tempered - and thus you invite to polemicize.
Your write your style of play is always noble because you playtest?
In my opinion (and it's not the only possible opinion): lol! real, basic playtesting should always be the highest difficluty because everything else can be balanced from there.
You can't play settler and say in deity this and this has to be the value there
You write your style of play is always noble because you playtest?
In my opinion (and it's not the only possible opinion): lol! real, basic playtesting should always be the highest difficluty because everything else can be balanced from there.
You can't play settler and say in deity this and this has to be the value there.
Unlike you, not everyone is a skilled enough player to have a fun time on Deity. I personally am challenged enough on Noble, especially since Koshling started giving the AI steroids. I think that we should not assume everyone is a super-skilled player, and make lower difficulties balanced, just as we should not limit balance to one gamespeed.
I would say that if you are testing new things at deity and winning, the only result of the test is that you can definitively say that the settings for deity are too easy. The hardest setting is supposed to be very hard to win.
It is supposed to be impossible to routinely win at deity without a "cooked" game (things that are normally considered cheating, like opening the world builder to check the resources around your starting position and restarting until you get a good start). In an actual random game, just about nobody should win more than half the time. If it is easier than that then it needs to be made harder, and probably the level or two below it as well. Presumably part of the issue is that the AI is having problems which need to be fixed - but that can be tricky.
I would say that if you are testing new things at deity and winning, the only result of the test is that you can definitively say that the settings for deity are too easy. The hardest setting is supposed to be very hard to win.
It is supposed to be impossible to routinely win at deity without a "cooked" game (things that are normally considered cheating, like opening the world builder to check the resources around your starting position and restarting until you get a good start). In an actual random game, just about nobody should win more than half the time. If it is easier than that then it needs to be made harder, and probably the level or two below it as well. Presumably part of the issue is that the AI is having problems which need to be fixed - but that can be tricky.
It's true: actually I am playing deity (first with one city start for AI by starting immortal and switching to deity at first turn, now normal deity 2 AI start) to lose now and then.
In awful situations where AI skyrocket like hell you have to get creative and you have to find some kind of soft exploit to be able to catch up, you need synergies, strongholds and skill regarding espionage and trade which the AI lacks.
it's the only way, aside the military approach, as the numbers of the AI don't count unless it unleashes them intelligently which it almost never does.
If it comes through to your cities then only because you underestimated the size of the stack, nothing else. But if you know how the Ai ticks, on what it is triggered you can easily fool it and lead into in traps. Then you can win deity. Although sporadically broken by sudden wake-ups
(having figured out what AI is up to and how or why and why not [-->bug found?] makes a bit lazy and unconcentrated from time to time)
it somehow even gets easy after a while, like your skin gets thicker if you push it against wood every day - eventually the wood will break, then the stone and then you know you can control the matrix. ;-)
This is the point where you can improve the game
Spoiler:
(which, as Zappara once predicted will become the foundation for us creating it in the future, a theory that is similar to what Tipler did with his Omega Point Theory btw was it included in C2C yet?)
by having ideas how to make it harder for yourself, yet still being curious at it and having fun feeling like always be playing something new, unending, thus you're make it deeper and more beautiful.
Herbalism helps as well^^ to me contemplating about C2C is something political and maybe even religious in a way (although the closest I could be towards religion would be pantheism).
If you really believe (or feel like the rastas say I and I) in the neverending circle of life you also feel the deepness of something that is discussed by creating a game.
Yes, CIV is like an effigy of creation, like a wonderful worshipping service for people who paradoxically tend to be atheists, agnostics and pantheists the same time and don't feel like that would contradict in any way as long as it grants hedonistic pleasures of sophism.
I mean come on, life is short and consciousness not mere than a blink of the third eye, the hyped up bowel of brain, a heavy black hole that once will be the singularity, recreating everything from scratch, from this sketch and your recognition of it.
Isn't life a big game and even if it wasn't, the idea of creating something that will reincarnate yourself in some other time is an act of loving yourself, accepting and cheering about how you percept and cherish what is and will be.
if it's an endless circle, it's self-consciousness forming, by contemplating. Civ helps the universe to get conscious about it's bottleneck, hows that for the usefullness of berry bushes?
Yeah, you may say it's just a game.. but are you sure? Tommorow Never Knows...
It's a world of difference between Deity and Immortal jacked up to Deity.
Pure Deity is a challenge. Immortal jacked up to Deity basically puts you on par with the AI if you are a good builder, and way ahead if your are a good fighter.
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at game start is getting wearisome. It makes no sense to have a build that gives 1 +Yuck and then +1 Health, or +1 food and then +1 food eaten. It just raises the number of each in the totals and does nothing else. 
So far its stonethrowers 4 and animals 3 (2 stone throwers and a wanderer). Please fix this, Please!
should cancel out the +1
it originally had. This is to account for poisonous berries.
