What good are submarines?

[Spiceweasel]

I can't seem to make submarines useful. I *want* to like them, and use them cleverly, but they always sit around doing nothing. What am I missing? How are you guys making them work?

Destroyers see them. Destroyers can beat them. Destroyers can outrun them. And as of combustion, any ships anyone ever produces will always have destroyers with them.

Sure, if the enemy were stupid enough to send out unprotected transports, subs would be great. But I've never seen that happen.

And of course, if the enemy doesn't have destroyers yet, subs are conveniently invisible. But in that case, who cares? You've got such an incredible advantage in naval power that stealth is meaningless.

Does anyone have any good sub strategies?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I like building 3 subs with 2 flanking promos (drydock / theocracy). Send them out to pillage enemy resources. If an enemy destroyer comes along, you have 80% withdrawal chances and 3 units. Even if you lose the first sub, the next one will defeat his destroyer. Sometimes, the AI doesn't upgrade their Ironclads (rare). however, I find that pillaging works best.

I agree, however, that the submarines should probably get an attack bonus against destroyers (+50%?). This would only be given for a sub attack as a destroyer attacking a sub would be like "sneaking up on it" and therefore should be able to defeat it easily.

 

[synthboy]

Dropping off spies? Never done it myself but I can see that it might be useful.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

yeah, that's probably the only benefit besides a pillager. I've done it before, but the spy was caught right away "causing trouble" and I never bothered for the 8 turns it would take to put another one there. Just attacked 'em outright.

 

[AThousandYoung]

Pickets and pillagers.

 

[snipafist]

Other than pillaging, they're great for scouting enemy territory. They're also pretty good at picking off lone transports or engaging carriers. If you've got enough subs with both flanking promotions, you can take out just about anything with very limited damage in return (80% withdrawal rate will do that) if you send your subs out hunting in "wolf packs".

 

[Sisiutil]

Pickets and pillagers.

I often use them for the first duty listed here. I usually conquer my landmass, but that usually means I end up with a lot of cities and my forces are stretched thin trying to protect all that territory. If the AI is going to launch an amphibious attack, I need to know where they're headed well before they get there, so I can move my units to counter.

I'll therefore often build several subs with Flanking I and Sentry, then leave them in sentry mode outside of my borders so that the edge of one sub's "lit" water tiles borders on those of the next one, and so on, so I essentially have a "sonar net", if you will, around my continent. I'll then see an enemy fleet approaching me well ahead of time.

It's easier to sink one transport than to kill the four units it's carrying.

 

[Napo981]

I'll therefore often build several subs with Flanking I and Sentry, then leave them in sentry mode outside of my borders so that the edge of one sub's "lit" water tiles borders on those of the next one, and so on, so I essentially have a "sonar net", if you will, around my continent. I'll then see an enemy fleet approaching me well ahead of time.

I do the same....

However, it's a pain in the neck to move all submarines, just keep boring me.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

It can be boring, but whether you use destroyers or submarines, does repetitive unit positioning during peacetime ever become fun? The strategy stated requires this type of repetitive positioning, so if you implement it it'll be boring (be it cavalry guarding borders or battleships guarding coastlines). However, the strategy is near flawless.

 

[Sisiutil]

Once they're in place, they're like a tripwire: set 'em and forget 'em. They'll wake up if a ship (or, more likely, several ships) comes within their visibility range. Then the boredom changes into full-fledged panic.

 

[Figaro]

But you could do all these things with Destroyers also. I think the OP's main complaints are that Destroyers have rendered subs obsolete.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Pre-BtS, subs are good for dropping off spies and gathering intelligence on ship movements. In wolf packs, they can be devastating, especially with withdrawal promotions. They can also be parked under ice to heal (safe from destroyers) which makes them good near arctic terrain.

Post-BtS, submarines are necessities. They can carry tactical nukes, which allows you to launch a surprise nuclear attack on your enemies without them knowing what hit them. Missile cruisers can do that, too, but they aren't invisible.

In both versions you can always sentry them off your coasts as advance scouts. If an enemy fleet comes near, you'll see it first. How many times has Montezuma landed an amphibious invasion force on your continent and you didn't know until it was already there?

 

[Cabledawg]

With the rock, paper, scissors concept of the game, it would be better if subs got a 50% bonus against Battleships.
Subs beat Battleships
Battleships beat Destroyers
Destroyers beat Subs

This would force you to have a mixed group in a convoy

 

[vodlaian]

I like using them for nuking if necessary. It's alot easier to send in a nuclear strike with subs than it is with a land vehicle. Just move in, nuke, then return to your borders to refill/guard. Of course you can just use ICBM, but then you risk failing if they have SDI.

 

[Barry Bonds]

Dropping off spies? Never done it myself but I can see that it might be useful.

Spies are my favourite unit in the game. That's my favourite strategy.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

But you could do all these things with Destroyers also. I think the OP's main complaints are that Destroyers have rendered subs obsolete.

Well, subs cost a lot less in hammers than destroyers. If you build some 8 - 12 subs to cover your coast (most likely more on huge continents map) that is a lot of saved hammers for a sentry.

 

[Thanny]

The single most useful thing you can do with submarines is send them under the ice to kill those damn barbarian galleys caught in a tiny section of ocean, moving back and forth for all eternity.

 

[Sisiutil]

The single most useful thing you can do with submarines is send them under the ice to kill those damn barbarian galleys caught in a tiny section of ocean, moving back and forth for all eternity.

...and finally stop those annoying "The enemy has been spotted near Icy Fishburg!" messages.

 

[Spiceweasel]

Thanks for the ideas, guys! I'll try to work this stuff into my strategies.

 

[Warspite2]

I can't seem to make submarines useful. I *want* to like them, and use them cleverly, but they always sit around doing nothing. What am I missing? How are you guys making them work?

Destroyers see them. Destroyers can beat them. Destroyers can outrun them. And as of combustion, any ships anyone ever produces will always have destroyers with them.

Sure, if the enemy were stupid enough to send out unprotected transports, subs would be great. But I've never seen that happen.

And of course, if the enemy doesn't have destroyers yet, subs are conveniently invisible. But in that case, who cares? You've got such an incredible advantage in naval power that stealth is meaningless.

Does anyone have any good sub strategies?

Hi there Spiceweasel. Here are some important things to remember about Subs...

Subs initially have a 50% chance to withdraw (up to 70% with flanking promotions), then you can explore rival territory, where a surface ship will have to declare war or sign open borders. A Sub can do this at will. Then the ability to carry 1 personnel definitely has its uses. Even if an enemy Destroyer sees the sub in its territory, they will not attack or declare war on you because of it. Also look at the cost, 200 for a Destroyer and 150 for a sub so 25% cheaper. At last, in BtS Subs can carry guided missiles, so there is another pro for them.

As for strategies, for me I find that sometimes I use subs to "keep an eye" on a civ's naval units and operations in an area. For example, I will park a Sub or two just outside a major city and see what I spot moving in and out of that city. If I spot a fleet of transports, it gives me a heads up into wondering just where the heck is that fleet headed? If I just know what direction that fleet is going, it gives me a big advantage. My guards will be up in case all hell breaks lose. So basically, my Sub will alert my main fleet and give them a heads up... "japanese fleet spotted off the coast sir! heading se!"

So really you just have to play with them and trust me you will find uses for them especially if you need to project some naval power quickly and cheaply. You can concentrate on your ground forces more since your cities won't be tied up building big ships. Subs can stay around for a while and you get your money worth especially with the right promotions. In the end, just having a few Subs out there single handed in different key locations will make a difference and keep a would be enemy from surprising you.

In combat, Subs are best used to sink Transports. The AI is not stupid and will escort them most of the time. Now here is something, two Subs together can double team a Destroyer or any ship and sink it. So if you do this and sink a ship, even if you lose a sub, you still win when you add the value in cost. Alot of times you won't even lose the Sub, it will inflict damage then withdraw. Your other Sub will finish off the ship or it can be sank or withdraw as well if you are unlucky.

Well there are some strategies that I do off and on. Not perfect but certainly useful how I play in my games. Don't forget, you can get creative with the personnel carrying ability of Subs too. Think about Spies or GP Especially in BtS with espionage! In the end, Subs are a poor man's modern naval unit for value minded rulers. At very least you can say... "yeah I have a few ships out there", sure just Subs but there better then nothing.