What (if anything) is wrong with the gaming industry?

[Synobun]

I know right, even I didn't expect this much of a reaction to the odd extra woman in a video game

But Gorbles..........

Historical accuracy. Very essential, you see, in a gritty, realistic war simulator such as the Battlefield franchise. The presence of a woman knocks down the house of cards! If we have a female commando, what's next? Jumping out of a plane in midair, sniping an enemy pilot, and then taking their plane?

Wait, that happened before the female commando. That's fine, though. It's very realistic. But a woman?

S J W M E S S A G I N G

 

[AmazonQueen]

I know right, even I didn't expect this much of a reaction to the odd extra woman in a video game

Just visit the Steam forums.
A game has female characters in major roles, gay romance being an option, some characters have dark skin - must be proof of SJW at work.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Apparently putting in PoCs or LGBTQ people into games is political but having cis white maless is "apolitical"

 

[Manfred Belheim]

You realise that the vast majority of video game player characters are male right?

I honestly don't know if that's true or not. I would definitely agree that there are more male player characters than female yes. But I also know there are loads that are animals, spaceships, amorphous blobs, beachballs, yellow faces, robots, etc. Or games where you control a team of different characters as disembodied "God" who never even appears in the game. And I know that these can be and have been very popular games with boys and men. There are also games with female player characters that also seem to have no problem attracting male players. And again, just being male doesn't mean you identify with any other male character ever simply because you share the same junk anyway. Like I said, I don't think I'm Batman. I pretty much have nothing in common with CJ in San Andreas, I don't feel like I am "him". I don't feel any less at home playing Ms Pacman than Pacman. Don't even get me started on Frogger.

But like I said, I perfectly understand and accept that there is an argument to be made for a more equal balance of player characters, I just don't think that argument is that it's a requirement to get people to play the games. People play games because the mechanics, game world, story, etc appeal to them. They don't play them because the main character looks like them or shares their genitals. If you're female and you really like the idea of playing a WW2-based FPS, are you really going to be put off by the fact that the player "character" (who you presumably don't even see most of the time) is male? Conversely, if you're not at all interested in playing a WW2-based FPS, is a female player character really going to tempt you in, when presumably they're just going to run around shooting everything exactly the same? I just don't buy that argument, sorry.

 

[Gorbles]

So we're ignoring the bit where you quote me saying something, and then immediately claim I said the exact opposite then? Okay cool. Even though earlier today you made a big deal about me playing "semantic games" because I added the word "all" when quoting you paraphrasing something I never said in the first place. Yet somehow this is just fine and dandy.

I don't know why you feel the need to just be so immediately aggressive and confrontational all the time, especially when you're so bad at doing it coherently.

No, I'm sorry, I don't personally identify with a blue cartoon hedgehog who bounces off springs, collecting gold rings, etc. I don't care how ragingly heterosexual he is, or how blue he is. I'm not trying to "insert myself" into that world.

I don't know why you're talking about Samus or Zero Suit Samus since I never said anything about this and have only the vaguest notion of what you're even talking about. I don't see how it's reasonable for you to bring something up I wasn't talking about at all, invent what you think my opinion about that thing would be, and then go "Haha, okay dude" like... you really think you're responding to me in any way?

My point is just that I don't agree that there's any requirement to see the protagonist of a game as a literal avatar of yourself in order to have a way in to playing that game. Yes there are a small minority of games where you can do that and it can be fun, such as with the Sims or those wrestling games where you can make versions of you and your friends to all fight against each other, or in an RPG with player customisation where you put yourself in the game. Somewhat ironically (perhaps) these also tend to be the games where you're free to create whatever character you want, and you can often end up deliberately playing as someone completely unlike yourself, making decisions you would never make, etc.

But I still think the vast majority of games occupy some middle ground between these extremes, where the "character" you're playing doesn't bear much resemblance to you at all (and this doesn't matter), but they're a blank slate enough for you to explore the world with as you choose to anyway, without necessarily "playing as them". Like if I'm playing some Batman game, I don't think I'm Batman, but neither am I thinking "what would Batman do in this situation". I just use whatever his skills and abilities are to explore the game in my own way (not that I've played any Batman game released after 1989, but that's not relevant). And before you say something about "masculine stereotypes", exactly the same holds true if I'm playing Tomb Raider. But I guess that's then just eye candy or something. Probably can't win here can I?

This is all entirely separate to the question about whether there should be more representation of female characters or heroines in games in general. I understand why that would be desired, in the same way it would be desired in films, TV etc. But that's more about just wanting to see other women in these things more often. I still don't think it's a requirement for any individual person to be able to literally see someone who looks like them as a main character to be able to get into the game though. The countless examples to the contrary where this doesn't seem to be a requirement would evidence that.

But if you don't want to actually talk about it and would rather just score points by completely misrepresenting what I've said or just constantly looking for anything to disagree about or any excuse to type "hahahha" in your responses then carry on I suppose.

Oh right. So what you're saying is you don't actually understand the topic you inserted yourself into, and that you don't understand how games are made and marketed.

I mean, fair, but that's remarkably at odds with how you normally present yourself on a topic.

I assumed Samus because I couldn't think of many other athletic characters with long hair. I was also being charitable, because if you're raising Tomb Raider as an example of proving a point about not drawing men into video games I'm going to have to start taking shots.

I mean, you talk about confrontational behaviour in a thread where you've a) moaned about people getting likes, b) insinuated, nay, directly stated that that's the motivation for posting, and c) made inferences to what you consider my "usual" behaviour which is a current habit of yours anytime I (or others, I've noticed) happen to call you out on whatever misinformation you're peddling at the time.

Now, if this misinformation was just the result of having next to zero knowledge about the subject, then I apologise. But I assume when someone - who has a history of asking for sources, priding themselves on the calling out of logical fallacies, and similar such habits - wanders into a topic, they at least have the most basic amount of knowledge about the topic before they start trying to correct other people.

Another fantastic example is how you "don't know" if there are more male protagonists in video games. Maybe . . . try and find out? Surely that would help if you were remotely interested in furthering the discussion, instead of just wandering in along your usual ideological lines.

tl;dr

You're saying don't identify with X, that you don't see yourself as an insert of Y. It's a cool anecdote but means literally nothing. You're projecting what you don't see in a video game (reflective of yourself) onto the general argument that protagonists are self-inserts or otherwise psychological avatars designed to maximise engagement.

You don't understand the topic well enough to have an informed opinion on it. Much like me and cars, but I don't generally wander into threads telling people how they're wrong about them

 

[Cloud_Strife]

And I don't buy your devil's advocate -Manfred- argument that representation doesn't have an impact on whether certain groups will play said games; I myself have personally bought games because they have trans characters or story arcs in them and I'm far from alone in this; even on steam there is a specific tag for "female protagonist".

I get it man, you think representation is a minor thing, but for a person who belongs to a group that have been misrepresented in the media by large (newspapers, films, books, music etc) as well as having factually incorrect assumptions and to be frank with you, bigoted views reinforced by said media, it's very disengenuous and frustrating to see someone who clearly takes for granted the fact that he isn't exactly starving for characters that at least resemble him.

Your opinions are equivalent to a middle class family saying that food scarcity isn't an issue and just as out of touch if not untethered from any moorings of reality.

You are adrift in your own mind Manfred. Lost. Alone.

 

[Farm Boy]

Well, I guess by now the thread has given a pretty good answer to its own title.

Lol. Gamers are kinda the worst.

But you should see the reaction to tryin' to get it in a hedgehog. Doesn't even need to be illegal.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Just out of interest, I voted a few years ago in one of those "top X games of all time" polls and I just dug out the email I sent with my nominations, so let's see what the main characters in these games are that I, a cis white hetero able-bodied male, chose as my favourite games. We have...

A completely customisable main character of either gender and various races.

A team of soldiers of either gender and various races.

Two cute, alien dog-like creatures (who don't indulge in any romances)

A wizard (admittedly male) and his pet cat, who take the form of two balls.

A selection of characters and armies of different races (admittedly all male).

A woman.

Energy that inhabits various robot bodies.

A spaceship pilot with no particular character attributes at all.

20-ish martial artists of both genders, including animals and supernatural things.

A woman.

Your honour, I rest my case.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Sir, this is an Arbys. what is your order please?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

You are adrift in your own mind Manfred. Lost. Alone.

God, really? Because I hold a different opinion to you I'm adrift in my own mind, lost, alone.

This forum is a fudging cesspool, it really is.

"Hey look, I think people can and frequently do enjoy playing games where the main characters aren't really a direct representation of themselves and who they don't necessarily personally identify with."

"Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee."

Sorry, I'm not going to be the evil nemesis you so obviously crave for some reason, I just don't share your opinion on this matter that's all.

(also not sure what you're referring to with the devil's advocate comment, but does it really matter at this point....)

Sir, this is an Arbys. what is your order please?

Oh stop being pathetic. Are you going to do the "are you okay?" routine next? I do so miss that one.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

It gets even worse when it comes to the lack of racial representation and sexual or transgendered representation, although it is slowly improving.

What did you think about the Mass Effect Andromeda transgender character controversy?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

God, really? Because I hold a different opinion to you I'm adrift in my own mind, lost, alone.

That representation in the media, which includes games, has an impact on who views it as well as dictating the makeup of the fanbase isn't some sort of conjecture but an understood sociological phenomenon that is exploited by governments and private business alike but you, in your wisdom, pay no heed to this and expect us to take it seriously.

Perhaps you need to collect your thoughts before venturing forth.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Oh right. So what you're saying is you don't actually understand the topic you inserted yourself into, and that you don't understand how games are made and marketed.

Seriously what is your problem? Is there any need to be this antagonistic over everything? I've said that I understand why representation can be important and why it's an issue worth raising, I'm merely saying that I disagree that seeing a literal representation of yourself in a game is a necessary requirement to being able to enjoy that game or find it appealing. And then given loads of examples that I think back that up. I'm not being unreasonable about it, or calling anyone else stupid for thinking the opposite, or claiming anything ridiculous like (for example) "men are not represented in computer games".

Then you just wade in, claiming I'm saying the literal opposite of what I'm saying, and acting like you just caught me raping your kittens or something. I know it's the internet but try chilling the hell out a little bit maybe. Not everything has to be a pointless fight to the death where the other person knows "literally nothing", or where everything they say (or don't say as is often the case with you) "is hilarious, hahahaha". Just stop being a total dick perhaps.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

What did you think about the Mass Effect Andromeda transgender character controversy?

If you're asking me, I never even heard about that.

Was that the main player character?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

What did you think about the Mass Effect Andromeda transgender character controversy?

There are better ways of doing trans characters although unfortunately their very existence, in the case of a minor npc in the Balders Gate 1, is enough to get the more socially regressive, socially deprived gamers to riot.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

There are better ways of doing trans characters although unfortunately their very existence, in the case of a minor npc in the Balders Gate 1, is enough to get the more socially regressive, socially deprived gamers to root.

I get that the way the character was handled in ME:A upset people in that she was super upfront about being transgendered and didn't have any further involvement in the story but I actually thought it was cool that they were depicting a time in the future where being transgender is such a non-issue that it comes up in casual conversation and isn't a big deal. After the backlash, they went back and redid the character, adding much more backstory that you could only access if you interacted with the character and did side quests for them, which is also cool.

I'm not familiar with Blader's Gate 1.

If you're asking me, I never even heard about that.

Was that the main player character?

I quoted @Cloud_Strife, not you.

It was not a main character. It was an NPC that would tell you she was transgender if you interacted with her, which upset the trans community because it was very casual and she had no other involvement in the game.

 

[Gorbles]

"I, @Manfred Belheim, am being unfairly maligned in both character and arguement"

* immediately uses an offensive characterisation *

I mean, this isn't hard. You're tripping over a bar that's so low it's on the floor.

And you still claim surprise at why people aren't being a model of serenity when it comes to your posts? It's because they're frequently this hypocritical and lacking in knowledge of the subject matter.

And that's before I even read the rape "joke", or whatever overreaction it is you're accusing me of after you posted a nice rant about how toxic you consider these forums. Like, uh, wow.

Maybe it's time to take a step back? Look at how you approached things from the wrong angle here? Given how I'm far from the only person pointing out how your posts aren't as saintly as you seem to see them as. I'd offer a PM, but I've done that more than once and never had a reply. You seem to prefer the public spectacle, weirdly.

tl;dr: you attempted a bunch of red herring examples to make an argument about male protagonists in games seem unreasonable, got mad and antagonistic at being called on it, and then called other people antagonistic to boot.

You claim people aren't interested in focusing on your actual points, but when people respond to them you ignore those responses completely and focus on the snippets of their posts that you can frame as being unreasonable.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

You can easily point to sociological phenomena such as the scully effect for examples of representation in media having an impact on who consumes what content and its impact in real world consequences it's not even up for debate at this point, advertisers have long known about it.

 

[Zardnaar]

A lot of this reminds me of an argument I had last year with my cousin while I was visiting Canada. He was complaining about women stars in action movies being too "unrealistic" because they're able to display feats of strength. I told him there's no such thing as a realistic male action star, people can't really do what Arnold Schwarzenegger or Sylvester Stallone do, so why don't you complain about any of them? It's all fantasy, why is it only a problem when women are portrayed as being competent?


I feel what you're saying here is that women being equal to men is a "fantasy" idea ... eech. If you don't care about those things, why do you bring them up? Do you feel we should be impressed by how "tolerant" you are while you're complaining about inclusion?


You do know that WWII wasn't won almost single-handedly by this one male super-soldier who doesn't eat, sleep, or go to the bathroom, can run and fight for days at a time and make incredible jumps? All of it is fantasy, your character you create didn't really exist or do those things, so since thing's aren't realistic anyway why can't you play as a woman? All games are fantasy, that's kinda the point, right? To insert yourself into a setting and make a difference ... if you want absolute historical realism, I feel you'd be better off watching a documentary about what real people did in real wars.

So basically do you feel you should have the right to insert yourself into WWII, but I should not?

And if you say you don't even play these games, why do you even care? Do you feel that female representation, just its mere existence, is really harming you that much?


No one's asking your permission on what types of movies we can enjoy. Please realize you don't get to decide what works for other people, it's not all about you all the time. This is the problem with the lines of thinking from people such as yourself, thinking things should only exist if you like them, and objecting to other people being able to enjoy things that aren't 100% catered to you. So what if you can have a female character in a WWII game? If you really can't handle that, it seems to me you're the overly sensitive one, and not these "SJWs" (I really hate that term being used as a pejorative, and in my mind really says a lot about you as a speaker) you keep whining about.


Solo did poorly, and ironically it's their only recent Star Wars movie that didn't have a female lead. But you don't hear people complaining it failed because it's a white male hero being "shoehorned in", do you? That's what privilege is all about. If a movie with women characters does poorly, it's because of a "failed SJW agenda forcing things in."

I do know that, I also spent 20 years reading WW2 so know very well how women contributed. AFAIK none were in bomber command, kriegsmarine u boat service, commandos etc.

If you're making a historical drama it's very obvious. If you're making Girls Und Panzers who cares.

Female action heroes big whoop, had them in the 80s. Make more of that.

People can make whatever they like just don't be surprised if you take a franchise from the past with a male fanbase and you replace the lead and have all the males act like idiots it blows up.

Or take Star Trek watched Star Trek Deep Space 9 and they had an episode looking at blacks in the 1950s.

It got the moral of the story across without being on the nose about it. Rascism bad, great episode and that was filmed 20 years ago.

Watched Unbelievable last night on Netflix, it's about rape. Powerful very well done, and it got it's point over.

In the 80 franchises were often aimed at boys or girls. Fair or not idk but if you update one and don't make it appeal to it's it's fans don't complain if it bombs.

Make more movies with women sure but you don't have to do it the expense if the males, Wonder Women good Last Jedi bad.

 

[Zardnaar]

You realise that the vast majority of video game player characters are male right?

It's no wonder they don't feel excluded when they are overrepresented in that media format despite women enjoying video games just as much as men.

It gets even worse when it comes to the lack of racial representation and sexual or transgendered representation, although it is slowly improving.

I think it's around 60/40 now, female gamers were rare pre Playstation.