What If God Was Real And Manifested Proving It?

[Valka D'Ur]

As someone who writes a lot, you need to be less literal. Write more poetry.

The thread topic is god working giant miracles to prove itself. Anecdotes about subculture use of vocabulary is irrelevant.

Someone else (more than one 'someone else') brought up Babel. That means I'm on-topic, even if it's in response to someone else's example.

As for my writing...

Spoiler writing discussion rebutting the above re: "less literal" and "write more poetry" :

"Less literal"? I write fanfiction. Specifically fanfiction based on games, most of which are fantasy-based. Even the one about the fictitious national park in Washington has a fantasy element, 'cuz how else to explain how part of Jasper National Park got tossed into Pinecreek Hills National Park? (okay, the game devs are just a wee bit geography-challenged, didn't want to spend time creating yet another scene within this park, used an image of one of our parks, and probably didn't think anyone would notice)

I have written poetry. I can appreciate a good metaphor. There are two main characters in King's Heir who write music and poems. Since the people who created the game this is based on didn't put this into their version and they didn't even have one of these characters (she's one of my creations), it means that I have to create these songs and poems myself. I've actually written original songs. That's part of what you have to learn in order to pass the Western Board of Music theory exams.

I've done a lot of worldbuilding for the setting of the story based on King's Heir. It's set in the early 11th century, and I decided not to get into real-history politics and religion. I decided that yes, the characters will mostly be people of faith, but I don't want to mess it up with real-history stuff. That's more research than I'm willing to put in, and it would result in characters who think and behave differently than the characters I fell in love with, and I wouldn't like them anymore. Besides, the game creators introduced magic in the last chapter of the main game, and I had to decide how to handle it when turning this into prose - ignore it, or work with it. I chose to work with it, though it felt strange at first. There's no explanation of how the magic works in the game, so that's something I've been having fun with in the writing, letting the characters figure it out as I do. The easiest and laziest way, of course, would be to say "Goddidit." But the Judeo-Christian god isn't in this story.

I made up a religion for them to follow, and even though their neighboring kingdom has a different set of beliefs, there's not much strife about it. They're certainly not going to get into a religious war, or use religion as the excuse for a war. If they go to war, it will be for some other, honestly-stated reason.

To sum up, I can create a fictional society of medieval-era people without the religious baggage we've had in real history. Yes, they've got their own problems, but that's prequel material that I won't be touching for a long time yet.

Oh, and the afterlife? It's real in this story. If the game devs can create a magic crown that kills anyone who tries to put it on and is not of the proper lineage to be king/queen, I can create a real afterlife for the dead characters and have people react in a variety of ways when one character tells others that he can speak to the dead.

The rest of these are out of order, but whatever.

I did say God would resemble the old testament Gid along with the ability to enforce their claims.

This means angels of death, pillars of salt and destruction of cities and nations if need be.

We already have these.

So why is it appearing in the clouds issuing demands in a booming voice? Rather destroys the importance of faith when its being all manifest right there.

Thunder is a "booming voice". It's not intentionally telling people what to do, but getting indoors is the only smart thing unless you want to risk a lightning strike.

Well as I said that power is consistent with the various holy books and can't be explained via science. Essentially real magic.

There are many things that can't yet be explained by science. YET. It may take a very long time in some cases, but I think humans are up for the challenge. We've come a long way so far.

Well in this case God can directly cause miracles or destruction.

I can cause miracles or destruction whenever I play Sim City or Civ. I don't demand that the fictitious people in the game worship me. In fact, my games are short on places of worship. But they do make it to Alpha Centauri ahead of schedule, with 100% literacy and plenty of Future Tech.

It's good that Zard hadn't said "867-5309 years ago."

I do believe in God, the Christian God. So the difficulty for me in the scenario you sketch wouldn't be the existence of God, but the fact that he was backtracking in terms of his message and his method of communication.

Dunno if anyone ever converted after attending a performance of Jesus Christ Superstar, but it was a fun show to work on. The only person among the cast and crew to have a bad mood during that whole time was the stage manager, but she was always a grouch anyway. The rest of us were high on a good time. That was the year I read the New Testament, in order to understand some of the songs.

We though what Troy doesn't exist. 3 year ago we didn't know, what Africans also have parts of Neanderthals
We still don't know origin (as I know) of Indo-European group... Actually, we even don't know all animals living deep in oceans.
If we don't know - it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist

Yes, I'm aware of these things, thank you.

You missed my point, which was about the story of the Tower of Babel. You're not going to convince me that the reason people speak different languages now is because some people got together thousands of years ago and built a tower that offended their god. And since you're not going to convince me of that, I'm equally not inclined to take seriously the idea that some deity can suddenly appear and make all those extra languages go away so we all speak the same one.

If it were to happen, cue the rage from some people if theirs isn't the language chosen to be "universal". We've already got that going in Canada, over the French/English thing, and because the Prime Minister appointed a new Governor-General who doesn't speak one of our official languages. Sorry, Mary Simon, but Inuktitut isn't a federal official language.

 

[Zardnaar]

Someone else (more than one 'someone else') brought up Babel. That means I'm on-topic, even if it's in response to someone else's example.

As for my writing...

Spoiler writing discussion rebutting the above re: "less literal" and "write more poetry" :

"Less literal"? I write fanfiction. Specifically fanfiction based on games, most of which are fantasy-based. Even the one about the fictitious national park in Washington has a fantasy element, 'cuz how else to explain how part of Jasper National Park got tossed into Pinecreek Hills National Park? (okay, the game devs are just a wee bit geography-challenged, didn't want to spend time creating yet another scene within this park, used an image of one of our parks, and probably didn't think anyone would notice)

I have written poetry. I can appreciate a good metaphor. There are two main characters in King's Heir who write music and poems. Since the people who created the game this is based on didn't put this into their version and they didn't even have one of these characters (she's one of my creations), it means that I have to create these songs and poems myself. I've actually written original songs. That's part of what you have to learn in order to pass the Western Board of Music theory exams.

I've done a lot of worldbuilding for the setting of the story based on King's Heir. It's set in the early 11th century, and I decided not to get into real-history politics and religion. I decided that yes, the characters will mostly be people of faith, but I don't want to mess it up with real-history stuff. That's more research than I'm willing to put in, and it would result in characters who think and behave differently than the characters I fell in love with, and I wouldn't like them anymore. Besides, the game creators introduced magic in the last chapter of the main game, and I had to decide how to handle it when turning this into prose - ignore it, or work with it. I chose to work with it, though it felt strange at first. There's no explanation of how the magic works in the game, so that's something I've been having fun with in the writing, letting the characters figure it out as I do. The easiest and laziest way, of course, would be to say "Goddidit." But the Judeo-Christian god isn't in this story.

I made up a religion for them to follow, and even though their neighboring kingdom has a different set of beliefs, there's not much strife about it. They're certainly not going to get into a religious war, or use religion as the excuse for a war. If they go to war, it will be for some other, honestly-stated reason.

To sum up, I can create a fictional society of medieval-era people without the religious baggage we've had in real history. Yes, they've got their own problems, but that's prequel material that I won't be touching for a long time yet.

Oh, and the afterlife? It's real in this story. If the game devs can create a magic crown that kills anyone who tries to put it on and is not of the proper lineage to be king/queen, I can create a real afterlife for the dead characters and have people react in a variety of ways when one character tells others that he can speak to the dead.

The rest of these are out of order, but whatever.



We already have these.



Thunder is a "booming voice". It's not intentionally telling people what to do, but getting indoors is the only smart thing unless you want to risk a lightning strike.



There are many things that can't yet be explained by science. YET. It may take a very long time in some cases, but I think humans are up for the challenge. We've come a long way so far.



I can cause miracles or destruction whenever I play Sim City or Civ. I don't demand that the fictitious people in the game worship me. In fact, my games are short on places of worship. But they do make it to Alpha Centauri ahead of schedule, with 100% literacy and plenty of Future Tech.



Dunno if anyone ever converted after attending a performance of Jesus Christ Superstar, but it was a fun show to work on. The only person among the cast and crew to have a bad mood during that whole time was the stage manager, but she was always a grouch anyway. The rest of us were high on a good time. That was the year I read the New Testament, in order to understand some of the songs.



Yes, I'm aware of these things, thank you.

You missed my point, which was about the story of the Tower of Babel. You're not going to convince me that the reason people speak different languages now is because some people got together thousands of years ago and built a tower that offended their god. And since you're not going to convince me of that, I'm equally not inclined to take seriously the idea that some deity can suddenly appear and make all those extra languages go away so we all speak the same one.

If it were to happen, cue the rage from some people if theirs isn't the language chosen to be "universal". We've already got that going in Canada, over the French/English thing, and because the Prime Minister appointed a new Governor-General who doesn't speak one of our official languages. Sorry, Mary Simon, but Inuktitut isn't a federal official language.

Well as I said for all intents and purposes in this scenario God can back up their claims and can punish if need be.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Well as I said for all intents and purposes in this scenario God can back up their claims and can punish if need be.

In that case I tell him to go away exercising the free will he supposedly gave us.

 

[Angst]

Might do a 2.0 clarifying the scenario in OP.

this is really needed. it's like
"what would you do if everything in this box was true"
*looks at box*. "it's empty"
"but what if it wasn't"

edit ok saw you did this but it's still kind of vague. which version of the ten commandments, and which half of the rules? is the sabbath a thing? can i sell my daughter? should i declare a bat a bird? we aren't going to get bogged down over discussing scripture here, we just want one piece of scripture to go by

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Well as I said for all intents and purposes in this scenario God can back up their claims and can punish if need be.

Punish what? Working on Sunday? Mixing fabrics? Eating a ham sandwich?

Kinda stupid reasons to punish people.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Well in my scenario the Christians may not be right

In your scenario, the Christians (as I understand Christianity) positively would not be right, and "judge not lest ye be judged" would the least of their problems. In your scenario half of the rules from the Old Testament are correct. Christianity replaces law with grace. In one manner of speaking, none of the rules are correct (because a rule-based approach to religion, the thought that you yourself can merit salvation by one action or another, is fundamentally incorrect). That's why I'd be taken aback. But I suspect this is not how you want people playing your game, so I'll see myself out.

 

[Zardnaar]

In your scenario, the Christians (as I understand Christianity) positively would not be right, and "judge not lest ye be judged" would the least of their problems. In your scenario half of the rules from the Old Testament are correct. Christianity replaces law with grace. In one manner of speaking, none of the rules are correct (because a rule-based approach to religion, the thought that you yourself can merit salvation by one action or another, is fundamentally incorrect). That's why I'd be taken aback. But I suspect this is not how you want people playing your game, so I'll see myself out.

Not really playing games more interested in CFCs reactions.

Quite a few still wouldn't believe even if God coukd prove it.

I didn't really want to say if any of the 3 judeo Christian religions were the right one nor have God take a side in ay the culture war.

More interested in what people would do or think if a divine being (or one who can make some reasonably good claims at divinity).

In hindsight probably should have been more specific eg two scenario God agrees with your world view (whatever it may be) or opposes your world view.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

It's impossible for "God" (whichever one) to agree with my worldview, as my worldview doesn't include gods.

Writing about them in a historical fantasy story doesn't mean that I personally believe in them in RL.

 

[amadeus]

I prefer to avoid speculations, let God be God and I’ll be me. As the Bible says, thou shalt not horn in on thy Lord’s racket.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's impossible for "God" (whichever one) to agree with my worldview, as my worldview doesn't include gods.

Writing about them in a historical fantasy story doesn't mean that I personally believe in them in RL.

That's fine I've thought up a part 2 where the scenario is a bit more clear.

So you wouldn't believe if God was talking to you directly and observing miracle/insert display of divine power in front of you?

 

[JollyRoger]

I would just assume it was Zeus and his pals playing a prank on us

 

[amadeus]

So you wouldn't believe if God was talking to you directly and observing miracle/insert display of divine power in front of you?

Would it be blasphemy to demand God prove divinity? If it is mortal man, it is not blasphemous, but how do we know unless we demand proof?

Anyone else feel like this is an unanswerable cycle?

 

[Zardnaar]

Would it be blasphemy to demand God prove divinity? If it is mortal man, it is not blasphemous, but how do we know unless we demand proof?

Anyone else feel like this is an unanswerable cycle?

The entire point of thread is its been proved but people are still pushing the prove it point.

Belief isn't required but might pay the consequences in afterlife. Actively sinning on a big scale (whatever God says is a sin)might have consequences in this lifetime.

 

[Gorbles]

The entire point of thread is its been proved but people are still pushing the prove it point.

Unless in your hypothetical scenario evidential proof of divinity is ongoing in the modern day, then it isn't proof.

"trust me, something happened 2,000 years ago" is exactly the same as IRL religion, to the skeptic. People questioning your hypothesis are the skeptics you need to convince.

"I already showed proof" isn't doing the job you think it is.

 

[Zardnaar]

Unless in your hypothetical scenario evidential proof of divinity is ongoing in the modern day, then it isn't proof.

"trust me, something happened 2,000 years ago" is exactly the same as IRL religion, to the skeptic. People questioning your hypothesis are the skeptics you need to convince.

"I already showed proof" isn't doing the job you think it is.

Well the proof is any miracles or disasters portrayed in the holy books.
If that involves God or some sort of messenger shrugs.

Say said messenger walks into a hospital, cures everyone and raises some recently departed on top of other miracles or punishments.

 

[Sarin]

You can certainly claim such events as hoaxes, but demonstrating the sources of the hoax might be difficult. To say "Oh it can't be god, because I can think of another explanation." fails on the merits. The idea is that any god who in some fashion proclaimed itself to all the world to be god, would then demonstrate its power. Raising the Titanic or unifying world languages into one tongue would be ways to demonstrate power that might well impress a lot of skeptics.

The issue is not whether or not the Tower of Babel existed. Use of "Babel" was to point to the diversity of world languages and then have god undo that with a swipe of the hand. Boring or annoying is not the point either. We are looking for a way to demonstrate godly power in a convincing manner. That is all. What you would think about a universal language is irrelevant.

"It has to be god since I don't have any other explanation" has been proven to have no merit many times in human history.

Our understanding of universe is far from complete. There were times when the flight of birds, lightning and many other phenomena were unexplainable, often considered miraculous and proof of this or that deity. Now we know better. There is no reason to think that whatever seemingly miraculous phenomenon we might witness now won't ever be explainable.

Of course, if an explanation isn't available, you're free to believe either way, but human history has shown many times that one path leads to enlightenment and improvement while the other to slavery. The computer on which you're seeing this message wouldn't be there if people would fall on their knees and pray whenever encountering something unknown.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

That's fine I've thought up a part 2 where the scenario is a bit more clear.

So you wouldn't believe if God was talking to you directly and observing miracle/insert display of divine power in front of you?

The thing with trying to convince an atheist who's familiar with science, science fiction, a plethora of different RPG magic systems is that there's a pretty high threshold to meet.

There are studio suits who have the attitude of "It doesn't have to make sense - it's science fiction/fantasy!"

I feel like I'm being sucked into a mix of the threads Berzerker and Timtofly posted in, not to mention the Ask an Atlanteologist guy, and told, "It doesn't have to make sense - It's God!"

Yes, it has to make sense, whether it's SF/F or religion. Otherwise, you're assuming that the intended audience is stupid, and that's no way to create good literature or foster trust.

I cannot think of anything that would make my dad alive, standing in front of me right now, at a time when he was younger and healthier and still had all his memories - and as a bonus, cured of his addictions to nicotine and alcohol - short of time travel, advanced medicine, and appropriate psychiatric remedies.

Oh, wait. Wasn't there a Star Trek episode with at least some of those elements?

Unless in your hypothetical scenario evidential proof of divinity is ongoing in the modern day, then it isn't proof.

"trust me, something happened 2,000 years ago" is exactly the same as IRL religion, to the skeptic. People questioning your hypothesis are the skeptics you need to convince.

"I already showed proof" isn't doing the job you think it is.

In my experience, people who just want you to take their word for it will use the "I already provided proof" really don't have any to provide.

 

[Zardnaar]

"It has to be god since I don't have any other explanation" has been proven to have no merit many times in human history.

Our understanding of universe is far from complete. There were times when the flight of birds, lightning and many other phenomena were unexplainable, often considered miraculous and proof of this or that deity. Now we know better. There is no reason to think that whatever seemingly miraculous phenomenon we might witness now won't ever be explainable.

Of course, if an explanation isn't available, you're free to believe either way, but human history has shown many times that one path leads to enlightenment and improvement while the other to slavery. The computer on which you're seeing this message wouldn't be there if people would fall on their knees and pray whenever encountering something unknown.

We have a lot more capacity to explain stuff now.

Say if aliens landed and had plasma weapons. We could surmise the ship is a spacecraft and the plasma weapon is a weapon failing that tool of some kind. With basic observation.

Say a women turns wearing a plain white rice. She walks into a hospital in London raises the dead and cures everyone. While preaching.

Walks around performing miracles in public. Walks across the Thames on the water, waves her arms over parliament and you see a angel pass over and half of them die.
She creates some rablets out of thin air with 20 commandments on it.

She then proceeds into the sky through a glowing portal. The clouds rearrange themselves into words saying "obey her". Everyone in the world sees it locally.


Some nation s says screw that and then us destroyed in an unexplainable Natural disaster. Eg volcano appears out of nowhere or there's a localized deluge in the Sahara or something. Hurricane hits the USA or wherever and spells out obey across the American Midwest.

 

[Zardnaar]

The thing with trying to convince an atheist who's familiar with science, science fiction, a plethora of different RPG magic systems is that there's a pretty high threshold to meet.

There are studio suits who have the attitude of "It doesn't have to make sense - it's science fiction/fantasy!"

I feel like I'm being sucked into a mix of the threads Berzerker and Timtofly posted in, not to mention the Ask an Atlanteologist guy, and told, "It doesn't have to make sense - It's God!"

Yes, it has to make sense, whether it's SF/F or religion. Otherwise, you're assuming that the intended audience is stupid, and that's no way to create good literature or foster trust.

I cannot think of anything that would make my dad alive, standing in front of me right now, at a time when he was younger and healthier and still had all his memories - and as a bonus, cured of his addictions to nicotine and alcohol - short of time travel, advanced medicine, and appropriate psychiatric remedies.

Oh, wait. Wasn't there a Star Trek episode with at least some of those elements?



In my experience, people who just want you to take their word for it will use the "I already provided proof" really don't have any to provide.

Well you woukd be choosing not to obey and tests fine. The repercussions are in the afterlife.

 

[Sarin]

We have a lot more capacity to explain stuff now.

Say if aliens landed and had plasma weapons. We could surmise the ship is a spacecraft and the plasma weapon is a weapon failing that tool of some kind. With basic observation.

Say a women turns wearing a plain white rice. She walks into a hospital in London raises the dead and cures everyone. While preaching.

Walks around performing miracles in public. Walks across the Thames on the water, waves her arms over parliament and you see a angel pass over and half of them die.
She creates some rablets out of thin air with 20 commandments on it.

She then proceeds into the sky through a glowing portal. The clouds rearrange themselves into words saying "obey her". Everyone in the world sees it locally.


Some nation s says screw that and then us destroyed in an unexplainable Natural disaster. Eg volcano appears out of nowhere or there's a localized deluge in the Sahara or something. Hurricane hits the USA or wherever and spells out obey across the American Midwest.

Could be sufficiently advanced aliens messing with us.

If you took some cavemen into modern world, you could show them things they'd have no concepts for, things that defy their understanding of the world. We still know nothing about many things. What makes you think we can't be like the cavemen? That the universe has no secrets anymore, that we can tell a miracle from the mundane with certainty?

As long as there's any unknown in the universe, there will always be room for this. Something that we can consider either natural or supernatural, but won't be able to tell with certainty yet. But believing it's the latter is the inferior choice.