[RD] What is gender ?

[Akka]

Ok, that is one question which I've wondered for a while, especially as there is often quite a bit of debate about feminism and so on over here. But it tends to never be actually defined and stay in the "implied" zone, which is made especially glaring when the discussions come over things like gender role, gender identity or transidentity.

So I'm seeing the paradox of the core of the debate being left hanging in the dark. And I think it's an interesting, if complex, subject, so I'd like to see how people define it. Not ideology and emotional baggage, not attempt to enforce an opinion, but factual/intellectual observations, reasonings and definitions.

So : what the hell IS "gender" and how can it be defined ?

 

[Perfection]

It is whatever you want it to be, baby!

 

[Akka]

I thought about adding "also please remember it's a RD thread, so please keep the self-styled witty one-liners for elsewhere". I knew I should have done it. So, despite the obvious symbol besides the title, I guess I need to explicitely say it :

Also please remember it's a RD thread, so please keep the self-styled witty one-liners for elsewhere.

 

[Lexicus]

Gender is generally taken to be something like "the cultural aspects of masculinity and femininity." It's distinct from gender identity which is a person's internal experience of their own gender.

 

[Perfection]

I thought about adding "also please remember it's a RD thread, so please keep the self-styled witty one-liners for elsewhere". I knew I should have done it. So, despite the obvious symbol besides the title, I guess I need to explicitely say it :

Also please remember it's a RD thread, so please keep the self-styled witty one-liners for elsewhere.

My one liners aren't merely witty they make deeper points.

People have all sorts of various views on gender, we don't need to pick one out and stick with it, rather we should be permissive and allow all sorts of takes on it.

From a philosophical perspective, I see no need to have particularly consistent views on the matter.

 

[john1565]

Ok, that is one question which I've wondered for a while, especially as there is often quite a bit of debate about feminism and so on over here. But it tends to never be actually defined and stay in the "implied" zone, which is made especially glaring when the discussions come over things like gender role, gender identity or transidentity.

So I'm seeing the paradox of the core of the debate being left hanging in the dark. And I think it's an interesting, if complex, subject, so I'd like to see how people define it. Not ideology and emotional baggage, not attempt to enforce an opinion, but factual/intellectual observations, reasonings and definitions.

So : what the hell IS "gender" and how can it be defined ?

According to Wikipedia,
Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex (i.e., the state of being male, female, or an intersex variation), sex-based social structures or gender identity.

 

[onejayhawk]

Wikipedia is wrong. People do not have gender, words do.

Gender is a grammar term referring to classes which differentiate nouns and pronouns in many languages.

• a subclass within a grammatical class (such as noun, pronoun, adjective, or verb) of a language that is partly arbitrary but also partly based on distinguishable characteristics (such as shape, social rank, manner of existence, or sex) and that determines agreement with and selection of other words or grammatical forms
• membership of a word or a grammatical form in such a subclass
• an inflectional form (see inflection 3a) showing membership in such a subclass

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender

One cannot decline to answer. One declines nouns. One must conjugate to answer.
Paraphrased from a legend (every third syllable was accompanied by a swat with the flat of a sword).

J

 

[Akka]

My one liners aren't merely witty they make deeper points.

People have all sorts of various views on gender, we don't need to pick one out and stick with it, rather we should be permissive and allow all sorts of takes on it.

From a philosophical perspective, I see no need to have particularly consistent views on the matter.

That's just completely dodging the point. People might have different view on gender, but that still means they have views on something that is a distinct concept and that is called "gender". What IS this "gender" thing ?

Gender is generally taken to be something like "the cultural aspects of masculinity and femininity." It's distinct from gender identity which is a person's internal experience of their own gender.

According to Wikipedia,
Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex (i.e., the state of being male, female, or an intersex variation), sex-based social structures or gender identity.

Okay, so it's about masculinity and feminity. Which are, according to dictionary, basically "sex". So gender is the interpretation of sex, either through biology, culture or identity ?
That's more or less the definition most people use, but then we enter the domains which made me start this thread :

There is an argument for the abolition of gender roles. This would basically means "removing the cultural aspect of gender".
There is the argument that a transgender person IS a person of said gender, regardless of biology.
So basically, the only thing left of gender if we follow these reasoning, would be "internal perception". But then internal perception of WHAT ? If there is no biological aspect and no cultural aspect, what is there to identify with ? What does it means "I identify as female" or "I identify as male" or whatever, when these are not based on anything outside the person ?

 

[Tahuti]

So : what the hell IS "gender" and how can it be defined ?

Gender (i.e. Feminine, Masculine) are the extra-biological constants of sex (i.e. Female, Male, neuter). So gender is cultural/spiritual, sex is biological.

 

[Lexicus]

Wikipedia is wrong. People do not have gender, words do.

Dude, things have changed since the 1950s:

Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955. Before his work, it was uncommon to use the word gender to refer to anything but grammatical categories.

Get with the program...

 

[warpus]

So gender is cultural/spiritual, sex is biological.

This has always been my understanding of this.

However, the Canadian government for instance will ask you for your sex, but the options on the dropdown menu will give you options that are pertinent only to gender, not sex. So I don't know if they're just being morons or if they know something I don't.

What I mean by this is that the question will ask you for your sex, but the options will include more than just Male or Female.

 

[Perfection]

That's just completely dodging the point. People might have different view on gender, but that still means they have views on something that is a distinct concept and that is called "gender". What IS this "gender" thing ?

Why do you think "gender" has to be a distinct concept? Seems to me that "gender" really is a suite of concepts that are sort of related, and that these concepts blend into each other. The reason gender can seem confusing or paradoxical is because it's not some singular distinct concept, and as far as I'm concerned it doesn't really need to be.

You're trying to enforce a discplined definition on something that doesn't need it.

 

[Hehehe]

Also please remember it's a RD thread, so please keep the self-styled witty one-liners for elsewhere.

No, I think Perfection summed up the current consensus pretty well. Gender is pretty much whatever feels like it

 

[warpus]

No, I think Perfection summed up the current consensus pretty well. Gender is pretty much whatever feels like it

But how does (for instance) a web designer deal with this when presenting users with a "What is your gender?" question? Or should such forms only stick to biological sex and only offer you 2 options?

 

[Hehehe]

But how does (for instance) a web designer deal with this when presenting users with a "What is your gender?" question? Or should such forms only stick to biological sex and only offer you 2 options?

Why should they oppress people by trying to force them to conform to some outdated preconceived notions? If it's absolutely necessary, can't they provide a field where people can write their gender, whatever it is?

 

[Lexicus]

For those interested in how biological sex is also not a binary:

https://qz.com/1007198/the-myth-that-gender-is-binary-is-perpetuated-by-a-flawed-education-system/

 

[Kyriakos]

Dude, things have changed since the 1950s:


Get with the program...

Useful to note, though, that not all language took notice of the change of the use of the term 'gender' in english. Eg in greek the term genos is still used primarily for grammar, and secondarily for lineage (the west euro coined greek term 'eugonics' is from eu (good) and genos, etc; genealogy etc etc), while only very formally for sex (male, female). Instead we use terms analogous to 'feminine, masculine' without those being tied to 'genos' except in grammar

 

[Hehehe]

For those interested in how biological sex is also not a binary:

https://qz.com/1007198/the-myth-that-gender-is-binary-is-perpetuated-by-a-flawed-education-system/

But what about people born with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH), a disorder of sexual development (DSD) in which a person with two X chromosomes is born with a functioning penis? What if you have androgen insensitivity syndrome, where despite having a Y chromosome, your cells’ unresponsiveness to testosterone gives you a “female” body? What if you have Kenefelter syndrome, which is when you’re born with two X chromosomes and one Y chromosome? Or what if you’re among the 1 in 4,500 people born with “ambiguous genitalia,” many of whom are surgically altered while still infants to fit into the binary two-sex model?

The science is clear: Sex is not binary after all.

There is a reason why these things are called "disorders" or "syndromes". No category is defined by its extreme outliers.

 

[Perfection]

But how does (for instance) a web designer deal with this when presenting users with a "What is your gender?" question? Or should such forms only stick to biological sex and only offer you 2 options?

Why do you need to ask?

 

[Lexicus]

There is a reason why these things are called "disorders" or "syndromes". No category is defined by its extreme outliers.

Binary means binary, not "binary with some exceptions that we decide not to count". Sex does certainly break down into two major clusters, but it is not binary.