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What is the best unit to attack cities protected with Longbowmen?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Gary King, Feb 10, 2006.

  1. Gary King

    Gary King Prince

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    What is the best unit to attack cities protected with Longbowmen? There doesn't seem to be any unit that gets a bonus against arrow units.
     
  2. Dueck

    Dueck Walrold

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    More longbowmen ;)

    Actually, macemen, since they can get city raider bonus, or knights, since they have the most strength in that era. Be sure to sacrifice a couple barrage-promoted catapults to soften the enemy up.
     
  3. Sidhe

    Sidhe Deity

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    Cavalry;) :lol: Out tech 'em is my advice then punish them bring some cannons along too:)

    Seriously though gunpowder units are very effective against non gunpowder units if you can get a tech advantage use these for as long as possible, should make city capture alot easier.

    Immortals/horsearchers get a bonus v archers dont they?
     
  4. mike p

    mike p King

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    Tanks usually work.

    But generally, you need promotions. Send in macemen with a couple levels of city raider and possibly the cover promotion, after your catapults have lowered the city defenses. Melee units can get cover and city raider, but neither archery or gunpowder units do. Knights are immune to first strike, so they may also have a fighting chance, but they don't have cover or city raider available (IIRC) - just have to give them lots of combat levels to increase their effectiveness. Cavalry or above and longbowmen die fairly easily.

    Also may want send in some suicide catapults to damage them. Though I'll usually just bypass longbowmen fortified in a city on a hill. Last time that happened to me I just pillaged every city improvement and waited around for Monty to attack the hapless Indians and then took the city after he softened it.
     
  5. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    You dont have to wait for cavalry, a gun always beats a bow so just use musketmen. They work great.
     
  6. Dueck

    Dueck Walrold

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    Musketmen can't get city raider, but they can get cover and combat, which is almost as good.

    Level 3 maceman 6/5 exp (barracks + vassalage)
    8 base
    +20% +25% = +45% city attack
    = 11.6

    Level 3 musketmen
    9 base
    +10% +25% = +35% combat+cover
    = 12.15

    If your enemy has city walls or castle, it's a no brainer. HOWEVER.
    We're considering this as if you have tech parity, so musketmen are not the best counter for longbowmen. If you have musketmen versus longbowmen, you probably have a tech advantage anyway, which makes this a moot point. It would be musketmen versus musketmen.

    So... macemen are the best city attackers for the medieval era.
     
  7. thordk

    thordk Prince

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    some suicide catapults followed by swords/axes/maces will do
     
  8. Sidhe

    Sidhe Deity

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    Echo.....Echoooo

    :D

    Actually any varied stack of Knights/mace/catapults are best for an attack on bowmen indivdually 1 for 1 then I'd take a knight over a maceman simply because I can retreat if I get messed up too much.

    Knights are 10 aren't they Strength 2 promotions =20% = strength 12 for the same upgrade exp. + better pillagers and can retreat from combat 2 moves means you can live to fight another day more often.

    Mace are 50% vs melee units and can aquire city raider I thought? It's swordsmen who get it off the bat isn't it or am I thinking of something else? I think I'd take horse anyway.

    12 beats 11.6.

    So knights are the best city attackers for the medievel era:D
     
  9. Zombie69

    Zombie69 Emperor

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    Catapults.
     
  10. Dueck

    Dueck Walrold

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    Sidhe, that's swordsmen that get "city raider" off the bat, but it's only 10%, so macemen are stronger anyway. Knights do not start with withdraw, unless they're camel archers (+25% withdraw chance to start). With that in mind, I play Saladin, so a few camel archers promoted with flanking 2 are extra nice for softening up an enemy city. Something like 55% withdraw chance :) (I can't remember how much flanking does)
     
  11. sligo

    sligo Warlord

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    Last night I was rolling over cities protected with longbowmen, catapults, and the occassional rifleman with my modern armor.

    Needless to say, I won the game in a space race. Got lucky at the start - the first hut gave me settler and the second hut gave me a worker. But then, it was just Warlord level. I think I ready to go up a notch for the next game.

    - Sligo
     
  12. Sidhe

    Sidhe Deity

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    yeah but then Knights are 12 over 11.6 I think that's the important point so knights rule medieval times.
     
  13. Panda

    Panda Metal head

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    Bombard with catapults to destroy the defense bonus, then send macemen with City Raider promotions.

    It might be me, but of all units I use, knights seem to have the worst die luck of all. :ack:
     
  14. Sidhe

    Sidhe Deity

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    It is you. Knights like elephants are mighty good on the attack and mighty bad in defence it seems, or that's my impression.

    I don't think the games combat system takes much notice of whether it's a knight or a maceman.

    I say send in both units with cats if you can. That's the way I'd do it for pillage/attack possibilities. But then any attack is entirely situational. In MP the power of a double moved knight attack is not to be underestimated. So for mp go Knights and for sp go either, whatever works for you.

    Try notching it up to monarch, most people agree that's a stern test for the CIV experienced noob SP player like me.
     
  15. Artanis

    Artanis King

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    Going by the numbers in the Combat Explained thread, assuming:
    Maceman, City Raider 2
    Aggressive Maceman, City Raider 2 + Combat 1
    Musketman, Combat 1 + Cover
    Aggressive Musketman, Combat 2 + Cover
    Samurai, City Raider 2 + Combat 1
    Knight, Combat 2
    Conquistador, Combat 2
    Longbowman, City Garrison 2, fortified, no hill, no remaining city defenses
    All units undamaged


    Matchups:

    Maceman: 8 attacking 9+1FS = ~20% chance of victory
    Aggressive Maceman: 8.8 attacking 9+1FS = ~30% chance of victory
    Musketman: 9.9 attacking 10.2+1FS = ~30% chance of victory
    Samurai: 8.8+1FS attacking 9 = ~45% chance of victory
    Knight: 12 attacking 11.7 = ~60% chance of victory
    Aggressive Musketman: 10.8 attacking 10.2+1FS = ~70% chance of victory
    Conquistador: 12+1FS attacking 11.7 = ~70% chance of victory


    Analysis:

    When everything is fresh-built, Aggressive leaders get the most against Longbowmen out of Musketmen, while everybody else - especially Isabella - gets the most out of Knights. However, Knights become marginalized if there's a Pikeman in the city (which Macemen/Samurai can virtually ignore, and vice versa when Crossbowmen are among the defenders). Macemen and Samurai do better than the chart when both sides have 3 promotions, since City Raider 3 keeps up with City Garrison 3 a LOT better than tacking on an extra level of Combat. What's more, Macemen and Samurai upgrade to Riflemen not too long after getting Gunpowder, AND those Cover Musketmen become utterly useless once the enemy starts fielding Musketmen of their own.


    Conclusion:

    Remember that you probably won't have gunpowder until a LONG time after you get Civil Service, so for most of that era, you need Macemen and Knights against the big cities ("big" as in "need Catapults to take"), while just Knights can run around on the flanks overrunning the more lightly-defended cities and pillaging stuff.

    Despite these numbers, Musketmen are largely irrelevant. They come too late to make much impact on medieval-era battlefields, especially if the front is a long ways off, and even if they DO show up in sufficient numbers to be anything more than a novelty, they'll just be replaced by Riflemen in a few turns anyways...and you really want those Riflemen to have City Raider promotions :hammer:.

    The only exception I can see is France, with their 2-move Musketeers. Louis can send them along to escort the Knights (since Knights can't get defensive bonuses), and Napoleon can use them as mega-Knights, slaughtering everything with them until they become obsolete.

    Long story short, Musketmen are more potent than Macemen and sometimes more potent than Knights, but unless you beeline straight from Guilds to Gunpowder, they come too late to be much use. Using Musketmen as your primary attackers will also sacrifice a lot of your potential offensive power when Riflemen come along, since Macemen can upgrade to Riflemen, taking their City Raider promotions with them.
     
  16. warpstorm

    warpstorm Yumbo? Yumbo!

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    I like catapults with city raider to soften them up.
     
  17. sliganian

    sliganian Chieftain

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    Artillery, Gunships and Modern Armour.

    What? :)
     
  18. salty

    salty Prince

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    You left out Knight with Flanking 2, ignores first strike + 30% withdrawl chance
     
  19. kivanc

    kivanc King

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    :) Let's make the case a little bit more complex (speaking of medieval units, not tanks or rifles etc)
    An aggressive Celtic (Boudica) musketman trained from Dun can also give good result.

    I see all your examples were level2.
    Guerilla3, Combat1 will not have a very high chance of victory (as it doesn't have cover) but plus it will have a 50% of withdrawal chance.

    If we talk about level3 units instead of level 2, then a celtic musketman may have Guerilla3, Combat1 and Cover.
     
  20. mariogreymist

    mariogreymist Deity

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    I like modern armor. I actually saw that recently - Isabella (who was by far the strongest AI) attacked me while I was building my spaceship in the mid-1700's. (A darius monarch game that got out of control and resulted in a "let's see how soon we can go to space on monarch" experiment.)

    In more reasonable tech parity type situations, I like to use mounted units. HA's can take LBs if you bring enough of them and give plenty of flanking promotions. Knights are better and Curassiers better still obviously. Maces with CR and cover promotions do pretty well too, as long as you can take down city defenses with espionage or siege. And if you bring enough cats, you can even take down LBs with swords.
     

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