What is the Point of...

[Ohwell]

What is the point of Marines? They serve little purpose in amphibious warfare as a bunch of Ships plus Alpine Troops serve better. And on regular land they are out mached by Alpine Troops, Cavalry and Artillery. So do any of you use them?

 

[Simon Darkshade]

They are better on the attack than Alpine Troops, who are a waste of time and space, have the same defence. Their amphibious attack is quite useful, and better than that of Alpine Troops, which is non-existent.
They have better defence than Cavalry, and the same attack, which is only slightly smaller than Artillery. They combine good features of various unit types; being high attack, durable infantry.
Under the fascist patch, they do move as alpine, which is appropriate, and adds to their utility.
Plus they look good.
Like most units, when used right, they are terrific.

 

[mep]

Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
They combine good features... [l]ike most units, when used right, they are terrific.

The same holds for Alpines. They combine a good defence, a reasonable degree of offence, and very good mobility, especially on unimproved rough terrain.

How they operate under a mod pack is irrelivent because it's a different game and, anyway, once you change one unit, you could just as easily change another.

 

[Mr Spice]

I use marines as defense units until mech.inf. becomes availible. As attack units I normally prefer cavalry over marines because of their greater mobility, until i discover mobile warfare and start building tanks.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Originally posted by mep


The same holds for Alpines. They combine a good defence, a reasonable degree of offence, and very good mobility, especially on unimproved rough terrain.

How they operate under a mod pack is irrelivent because it's a different game and, anyway, once you change one unit, you could just as easily change another.

In regards to the mod pack, be that as it may. It does not change the fact that Alpine Troops are a waste of resources, with the only possible redeeming value being their "alpine" ability. You say they have a "reasonable degree of offence" (well, I find little men in yellow suits on skis in deserts and farmland offensive... ), yet the Marine has substantially better.
They come too soon after Riflemen, and too soon before Mech Inf to persuade me to waste time on them. If you play to a successful formula, the tech gap there should only take a few turns, and then you have a mobile unit that defends better, and has a better attack.
For mobile warfare, I use truly mobile units. However, they require support from a tough defensive unit that also packs a punch.
There is no way under the sun you can argue that a single alpine troop is better offensively than a single marine unit. And therein lies my point.
8 and 5 is a better deal than 5 and 5, with some movement chucked in.

Marines are very good allrounders as a unit. My personal style (Democratic airpower blitzkrieg) doesn't leave much room or point for building them, or any but the minimum of ground units, but I always bribe a few, or send them to the enemy as a 'gift', and then get them back as NONE units, because of the reasons outlined above.

 

[atawa]

Marines, alpine troops, both a waste of resources if you ask me.

But he, I'm the kind of guy that goes around destroying complete civs with about 200 spies and 5 howitsers......

 

[Andu Indorin]

Originally posted by Simon Darkshade

It does not change the fact that Alpine Troops are a waste of resources, with the only possible redeeming value being their "alpine" ability.

I used to have much the same low opinion of Alpine Troops, prefering Armor units to support my Howitzers when at war, which is that point is Total War. But in a number of recent Succession games, I did manage to put Alpine Troops to good use as a part of combined operations force composed of Cavalry, Artillery, Alpine Troops, and "Combat" Engineers. (It always seems that somewhere along the line in Succession games I inherit an excess of military units that I just have to put to good use.) In essense, while in and of themselves their fairly useless, the improved defensive value and ability to move through closed terrain of Alpine Troops can prove useful in unoccupied seizing enemy fortifications, covering the advance of "Combat" Engineers laying Railways for Artillery to bombard cities and Cavalry to strike anything in the open and retreat to protection.

Having learned how to use Alpine Troops as a part of combined operations force, I now even occasionally build such a force in solo games to launch a limited war (i.e., a war that destroys only one or two civilizations as opposed to all of them at once) at the beginning of the Modernization process while I continue to pursue Armor and Howitzers with a vengence.

 

[Franklyn]

Marines are pretty decent defensive units, plus their attack value is high enough that they can do some damage on advancing units. And IIRC, they're cheaper to build than Mech Inf.

That said, I prefer Mech Inf. over both marines and those crazy skier dudes in the yellow suits. I mean, who wants Picabo Street defending your empire?

 

[mep]

Originally posted by Franklyn
And IIRC, they're cheaper to build than Mech Inf.

Since when is 60 cheaper than 50?

 

[Ace]

There are no useless units. each unit, used properly, has a function. that said, the marine unit has one real claim to fame: amphibious assault. The ability to attack from a transport directly into an enemy city is its main reason for existing.

I admit, I do not use them much because I prefer spies or howitzers backed up by tanks and mech inf, but , when you do need to attack a city directly from a ship, they are invaluable.

 

[Ohwell]

Don't get me wrong... I love Marines! I just think they have little use besides light offense and defense. Their amphibious ability is horrible against cities defended with mech infantry or even Alpine Troops. So they are only marginally useful for the period between riflemen and mech infantry.

And yes Simon, they do look cool

 

[Elfstone]

Yes you can attack the city from the ship, but the city more likely has city walls than it has a coastal fortress so I just use a battleship. Then
I have three riflemen from a transport who can
instantly capture the city from the ship once the battleship does its work. I have city that is now defended with units cheaper than marines. (I think)

 

[Franklyn]

Originally posted by mep

Since when is 60 cheaper than 50?

So IRIC (I Recalled InCorrectly).

You're right, mep: The Mech Infantry is cheaper to build, which is a plus. It also has more move pts than the marine unit (3 vs. 1). And their defense is a bit better (6 pts. vs. 5), plus they have one more HP (3 vs. 2). With all that, a vet Mech Inf. in a walled city (or fortress) is virtually unbeatable by the AI.
But if your cities are under attack, a vet marine (12 attack vs. 9 for Mech Inf) can come in handy for counterattacking enemy units that stop adjacent to your cities (or a fortress, if you have him posted there). I find Marines do a esp. good job of blasting all the baddies off a hillside if your howies and armor are otherwise occupied.
I don't use Marines as amphibious units against cities unless I've cleaned out said city and I don't have a paratrooper handy or a direct rail link to the city. Otherwise, as some other folks have noted, that Marine will come home in a body bag.

 

[Old n Slow]

I generally play a passive game building wonders until I get Tactics. Then I switch to a fundy state of mine, get $$, build improvements & visit the neighbors.

So I raise the standard of defense from un vet rifles (due to Leo's)to vet (via Sun Tzu) alpine & use the rifles to clean up fodder to become vets. The cavalry (for pikemen & below) & later artillery (for musketeers) go out to do the pounding. (No need for Marines.)

When automobiles & battleships arrive, coastal bombardment begins in earnest & ANY unit exiting off a transport can check into the city. (No need for Marines.)

I only research the advavce for the port facility.

 

[EdwardTking]

If I have Leo's and War Academy (and pollution); I may
delay researching Automobile and Mobile Warfare.


Marines may then be usefull for a limited period only.
Mixed with Alpines; they provide counter-attack in city
defences. However I never seem to use them much for Amphibious attack. I suspect that this is because such use requires very careful co-ordination in planning (a) production;
(b) transport and (c) their attack. For similar reasons
I suspect I do not make enough use of aircraft carriers.

 

[unknown_spirit]

I use them along with Howitzers & Armor. I build stacks of them and place them on the same square as Howitzers for defence.
Also, hit 'em with an Armor assault, and use Marines to mop up and keep captured cities under your control.
:rocket: