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What is your dream / vision for WTP?

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by raystuttgart, Nov 21, 2020.

  1. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Hi guys,

    recently I was asked:
    "You talk about your vision quite a lot, what is it actually?". :think:

    Simple answer, it is more or less still what I had posted here already in 2012. :old:
    Since then the concepts / ideas have simply been refined and improved - but of course a few new ideas have been added.

    When I talk about "vision" it is primarily the "big game changing new game mechanics and overhauls".
    They can be understood as fundamental pillars that many many smaller features are built (and balanced) around.

    -----

    Several big new Game Mechanics / big Overhauls have already been achieved:
    (Of course we had done uncounted more features, additons and improvements than that.)
    Spoiler :

    These are perfectly fine for me:
    • Ecomony System (Buildings, Yields, Professions) is finished
    • Satisfation System (Happiness) is finished
    • Culture Expansion System (Excanding City Radius) is finished
    • Founding new Settlements Overhaul (using Profession) is finished
    This is getting its hopefully final finetuning:
    • Terrain and Terrain Feature System (Large Rivers, Plains, Wetland)
    I am still not really happy with this though:
    • Health System is implemented, but I am not yet fully satisifed with it - that is why I still talk about "Health Overhaul".


    The big new Game Mechanics / big Overhauls that currently do not exist yet:
    (However continuously small "puzzle pieces" are placed to be able to one day integrate them.)
    Spoiler :

    A) More realistic and immersive "Politics / Diplomacy / Trade":
    • International Trade / Diplomacy System (which e.g. also includes new diplomacy deals and trading goods)
    • Native Knowledge / Inventions (which e.g. also includes trading Knowledge / Inventions)
    B) More immersive "Religions / Society" aspects
    • Religions System (which includes many small events and new strategic options)
    • National Politics System / Civics (which includes massive amount of strategicail choices)
    C) More immersive "Military / Exploration" aspects
    • Military System Overhaul (incl. Upkeep, Rebuild of Cannons as Professions, ...)
    • Exploration Overhaul (which basically is more about a bit more variation and challenge)

    I am not going to list all the small features that I still have concepts for, because I would still be busy writing tomorrow ... :mischief:
    (Also that stuff is comparably easy to handle and also not an issue for any of the other features if completely dropped.)

    -----

    But of course:

    This is just "my personal vision" - one voice out of many. :)
    Every team member has his "own personal vision" for the mod.

    Thus it is not said that that stuff will be implemented in WTP. :thumbsup:
    Only the things that all of us like will make it into WTP core mod.

    I will not implement anything that is not wanted by team and community!
    Because only as a team and with the help of community we can make some of this come true. :grouphug:

    -----

    @team:

    I would be really interested to hear what the "visions" of all team members look like. :popcorn:
    Because I really want the mod to include your dreams as well - only then can it be "our mod". :hug:

    Tell me what you want ! :goodjob:
    (Because then I can try to make a concept and implement it.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  2. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Emperor

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    One of my dreams was always to have an era specific unit and profession system. Due to the (simple) mechanic of the game all units and professions are available during the complete game. It would be much more realistic and to my view it would bring a lot of historic accuracy (but this is only one cool side effect) to the game, when we would have changing units and professions. Of cource all of the civil units and professions are required during the game so that I would focus on the military part of land units as well as all ships.

    This system should not only focus on graphic aspects but also on the functionality of the units and professions (in particular the land units/professions because ships are either military or cargo vessels and that's it).

    At the beginning of the game the player would have only lightly armed mercenaries, conquistadors, musketeers and light mounted units, just as it has been historically. These are rather undisciplined troops that correspond to the end of the Middle Ages and the beginning of the Age of Discoveries.
    In the course of the game - in accordance with the technical development of modern times - the player then receives more and more new units and previous units disappear or can no longer be newly created or hired. Slashing and stabbing weapons and simple muskets gradually replace more and more modern weapons, modern muskets and rifles are introduced, and a strict military order is also expressed in the units. Conquistadors became colonial militias and simple troops became drilled infantry regiments. Artillery and modern cavalry arrived.
    Graphics is only one aspect of this, which is why, for atmospheric reasons, units do not just change their appearance, but also their equipment, combat values, abilities etc.
    The same applies to ships, of course. At first, only the early types should be available in the game, such as the caravel or the carack. Later on, frigates, liner ships and fast, modern merchant ships will be added according to the times - modern of course in the sense of the 17th and 18th century :)
    The concept would give an enormous depth to the game and bring a bit more reality into play. The effort would not even be that great and you could let off steam again.
    This massive change of the game could of course be supported by more depth in the units and professions such as the necessary supply, maintenance, military equipment (new goods are not mandatory, but could be considered) etc.
    This feature would be one of my biggest "dreams" at the moment, if you already ask what we would like to see.

    ==========================
    CUT
    Another idea would be the complete modernisation of the map ingame. Melcher Kürzer has shown us what is possible and a corresponding graphical modernisation would of course be great and an absolute feast for the eyes. But here I am currently reaching my limits with my skills and for this I would certainly need someone who knows the system, to adjust the views accordingly and the programming.

    The effort would of course be enormous, because almost all graphics on the map would have to be adapted, as they are oriented to the current system. It would definitely be worth it, but it might be necessary to change the DLL, I don't know exactly.

    A beginning would be the adjustment of all sizes to each other, e.g. bonus resources should not be as big as houses anymore. If this is coordinated, it would be a great effect.

    Well, as far as my biggest wishes for the mod...
     
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  3. Mr. ZorG

    Mr. ZorG Warlord

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    great offer. and we need Melcher Kürzer)
     
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  4. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    CivEffects can be used to allow and disallow units, buildings, professions and promotions during the game (among other things). We know how to handle what you ask for in the code and how to control which units etc to lock and unlock. The question is when to trigger. Eras is possible. A tech tree has been mentioned, but we have other options as well. The question is how precisely to do it.

    Since I have coded a partial implementation in the DLL of what you are asking for, I think I have stated already that I share your vision in this regard.

    Speaking of a graphical overhaul, I would like to replace the globe map with a rectangular one (BTS style). Not only is it easier to read, only the globe has a bug where not all plots are clickable at 4K resolution. Switching between drawing map as globe and rectangular is trivial in the code, but it looks stupid to place a rectangular map on a panel designed for a globe. There is also something to do with button placement.
     
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  5. Neko Keeshi

    Neko Keeshi Chieftain

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    mine was native civs + victory. Unite the Tribes against the Europ invaders kinda thing, ect..
     
  6. Nebula213

    Nebula213 Chieftain

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    my wish is that the game not ends with the Independent. so after victory some other colony nation join your new country after a period some colony start to create the own country so the civil war begins between half south and half north colonys and it is not possible to know which colony are yours before the civil war starts. it is like total war rome two after some time some city and armies are fighting agains you. and after Victory you have a stable democratie and win the game.
     
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  7. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    I generally agree, but I feel that "Eras" is not the best option for it.
    Considering effort and technical possibilities and gameplay adpating and adjusting the "Techs" concept would be much better.
    (It is simply a more "versatile and capable system". That is why we still have it on the list.)

    I completely agree with the goal. :thumbsup:
    But I really prefer "Techs" as technical solution for it.

    The thing is simply that the "Tech" solution will be much less effort and much more versatile and powerful.
    And of course, it could use your CivEffects. :thumbsup:

    Also fully agree, it would be awesome to adapt some of the improvements Melcher did. :)

    Of course, but that is always the point with "dreams" and "visions".
    They take their time to become true. Everthing step by step. :thumbsup:
     
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  8. Mr. ZorG

    Mr. ZorG Warlord

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    I have a modest dream - playing in Russian in multiplayer without desync:blush::mischief:
     
  9. Nebula213

    Nebula213 Chieftain

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    yes i think multiplayer is a way to go to make this game more public. yes it is a singleplayer game but with simultan movement it is better for multiplayer and coop gaming as total war games. in the past i make my colleague a gift with colonization and until the desync it is a very good Experience
     
  10. Nebula213

    Nebula213 Chieftain

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    yes a civil war end content is just a wish. i am happy with the game right now and with your new content with the next update a i am have a lot to do. ☺
     
  11. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Emperor

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    Tech Tree would be absolutely fine for me. I did not mention it because it would be a massive feature itself and it would impace all aspects of the game. But the "CivEffects" nightinggale mentioned sounds also interesting. Maybe something that we should have in mind for other small features, events or whatever...
     
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  12. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Yes, "Tech Tree" would be a massive feature. :thumbsup:
    It is still one of my favourites however and a top candidate for me to work on after the upcoming release.

    To make it match the atmosphere of Colonial Era, this is my current game concept for it.
    (I do not have a technical concept for implementation yet though.)

    CivEffects is a great concept I also fully agree. :thumbsup:
    (As far as i understand it is not a feature of itself though.)

    It is more of a base functionality that other Systems e.g. Eras, Techs, Civics, Traits or Achievements, Promotions, ...
    can use to add modifiers to Units, Professions, Terrains, Improvements, Buildings, ...

    Once we have CivEffects it will be much easier to implement new game play concepts using it.
    As far as I understood it would simply require us to fully clarify which functionlities CivEffects should get.
    (Which of course depends on what Systems shall use it and what functionality we want them to trigger.)

    @Nightinggale:
    Please correct me if I misunderstood. :thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
  13. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Emperor

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    Hm, this needs to be discussed at a later stage, but I can say that I currently do not fully agree with your suggestion to change a "tech tree" to a "royal permission tree". I'd like to see reflected the technical changes (e.g. regarding more modern warfare and weapons, ships, industrial productions).

    And I disagree with the statement that technical development was very limited at that time. There were technical inventions - it was an age of discovery and not only regarding the discovery of the world. However, maybe the "tree" can be a mix of both. However, this can be discussed when we have completed all current features. I currently do not like fully open discussions about another main feature. We should focus on the current ones. For the moment I'm very happy to hear that there might be some very good opportunities for future big features and that you already have technical solutions in mind... :goodjob:
     
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  14. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    Think of CivEffects as traits. It's an xml entry, which a player can own and it grants bonuses or penalties to said player. The key difference is that a player can't own a CivEffect directly. Instead it can be owned indirectly like a trait has a tag telling which CivEffect it provides.

    The main idea here is that we can add more ways to own CivEffects. Traits, Civics, FF... the list is more or less endless. Whenever we make a new concept like techs, rather than creating tech specific features in the code/tech xml, all we do is adding a CivEffect tag to the tech xml and techs can provide everything already added to the CivEffect system.

    If we need a new feature, which techs can provide, we add it in CivEffect and then every single xml, which also provides a CivEffect can use it with no additional programming. It becomes pure xml setup.

    Obviously this means over time CivEffects will get more and more tags while there will be more and more ways to own them. Each tag and each way to own one will make the system more powerful. It is admittedly at the early stages right now, but the initial work has been done in big merge and it "just" needs to get more tags and/or move tags from one xml to CivEffects to unlock existing features in other xml files too.

    Internally it is based on a cache system meaning it's high performance and unlike some other xml files, the game will not slow down as the number of CivEffect entries increase. It's also able to own the same CivEffect entry more than once and let the effects stack. Not sure if we will ever use that, but the design allows it. It's not saved, but calculated on load meaning xml changes applies to existing games.

    In short: it unlocks a lot of xml setup options without additional programming.
     
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  15. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    As I said, it is truly a great concept. :thumbsup:

    Maybe after we finished "Large Rivers" and merged it into "Big Merge" we can clarify the tags we would like and implement their funtionality. :think:
    Of course such a system is never done and will always continue to grow - so we do not need to strive for completeness for the first version.

    If both of us work on it together we could progress quite fast. :)
    (I could do a lot of the implementation of tags and their functionality.)

    And I fully agree that once we have CivEffects, it will become much more efficient to implement some other features. :mischief:
    (E.g. "Golden Years with Achievements", "Tech - whatever we want to call them", "Civics", ...)
     
  16. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Emperor

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    Hey Folks, are we the only ones with dreams for big features?

    Feel free to share your visions for WTP. We are always happy to get new ideas! :D

    Participate and get your dream implemented! :thumbsup:
     
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  17. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Prince Supporter

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    My vision - as a guy who loves Colonization but has no talent at graphics and knows hardly anything about modding - is a slower game.

    The historical colonization did take a long time and currently only gigantic maps offer a hint at how the colonists slowly discovered their surroundings and the other colonial cities.
    e.g. colonization in Northamerica historically until 1700 is a tiny space
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Thirteencolonies_settling.jpg
    It took until around 1620 to establish the english colonies at the north american east coast in a way that they were no longer vulnerable to vanish in one or two harsh winters or as the result of two bad harvests or be overrun and annihilated by the surrounding indian tribes (like e.g. Roanoak).

    Many people best know the picture of the "Redcoats" of the british army as the gold standard of troops that homecountries stationed in their colonies and later became the hated occupation forces of England in the 13 colonies - however the "british army" itself did not exist at the start of the game and it´s birth as a professional standing army could be placed around 1645
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_British_Army#Creation_of_British_Army
    Before England (yes, England, not the British Empire nor the United Kingdom which was established only in 1701) should in colonial skirmishes rely on troops mostly consisting of local Militias and indian allies to be raised in times of war with a tiny core of english troops.

    Mobile "artillery" that goes out there to march across the continent is a historical abomination in the early game. Until around 1600 the only cannons available in the Americas should be either those on the ships, mainly expensive (compared to cheap iron cannons that had other disadvantages like splintering and rusting) bronze cannons
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gunpowder#Iron_and_bronze
    , a few large but almost immobile pieces in major fortresses / cities (e.g. like the "Greif" of 1524 that was placed in the fortress of Ehrenbreitstein near Koblenz in Germany)
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/16th_Century_Artillerie.jpg
    and a scattering of a mind-numbing variation of calibers that are often only a bit larger than the muskets of the Infantery and are represented by the "light artillery" unit were the historical smaller pieces could be seen just as unwieldy large muskets and the larger ones as almost as immobile as the huge ones, at least until inventions like that made it possible to transport cannons (at least where roads where available)
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protze

    It is hard to imagine and to simulate just how slow and cumbersome marching an army unit with cannons through the countryside was and how army units had to create roads through the wilderness to be able to take them with them at all without risking them to be stuck in mud.

    In a game that has turns that are a whole year or half a year after a while (e.g. the original colonization changed the flow of time after a while) even the slowest cannons march 1 square / year like Infantery where in reality cannons should be markedly slower which would require larger maps (where a "square" simulates a smaller area) or more turns with cannons having less speed, e.g.not just 300 turns = years and game is over, but something like 100 turns = years for the first century where historically not much happened, then 200 turns = each half a year and then 300 turns that simulate only a season.
     
  18. HobyMorgan

    HobyMorgan Chieftain

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    Well if you insist ;)

    First of all, the stuff you guys have pulled off in the last few years is incredible; you made a mediocre game into an absolute gem. And it is still getting better!

    That being said, there is always room for improvement. Before switching to RaR and its successor WtP, I mainly used to play the "Dawn of a New Era" mod (DOANE for short). This mod has some very intresting game concepts, which could really enhance the overall experience and make it even more historical accurate, in my humble opinion.

    Especially the fact that throughout the game the building- and unit variety keeps expanding, is a great way to keep the mid- and late game interesting. So no more unlimited access to all sort of units (military and non-military) right from the start, but a gradual expansion of features. They did this with era’s (see spoiler below), but this might also be achieved with some sort of royal permissions/tech tree, which has already been suggested by other people on this forum.
    Furthermore, the exploration mechanism makes exploring the map more challenging and way more realistic, which has been complained about by other people on this forum by being currently too dull and easy. Also, by exploration you make contact with the natives, who will give you access to new world produce like cocoa and peanuts, so just like history, you have to discover a plant before growing them and making them into cash crops.
    The trade mechanisms are quite something, too. Trading with the natives is done by bartering (which is way more realistic), profitable trade agreement can be made if they like you and the default trading with Europe can be done in a more automatic fashion.
    The implementation of a agronomist profession to plant cash crops and upgrade plantations and farms is quite refreshing, and so is the fact that not all terrain plots produce the same amount of yield, so scouting for profitable farm land and settlement location is more like ye olde times. The naval unit mechanism (splitting naval units in crews and ships) is nice as well and again, more accurate, but probably a real challenge to implement.

    In short; my dream for WtP would be to have some of the features from DOANE to be implemented in WtP, to make it an even more historical accurate game and at the same time offering a solution for current issues (like improving the now too dull exploration, tile production variability and gradual expansion of units/buildings/etc during the game). Oh and about balancing and fear of favouring the human player; I almost always get beaten by other colonial AI's so i dont know how they improved the AI, but they obviously are not limited nor hindered by the game features.



    For those who never played DOANE, i wrote down some main features in the next post. (i cant figure out how the expanding spoiler thing works.. srry for the long read..)
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2020
  19. HobyMorgan

    HobyMorgan Chieftain

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    Era’s

    As earlier suggested on the WtP-forum, DOANE as well works with different era’s. Every era has its own perks and can be unlocked by either fulfilling some specific demands (for example: have at least two colonies with 3 defending unit each AND 10000 units traded AND 1000 crosses AND 500 bells etc etc) or you can advance automatically after x-amount of turns after another player advances. It is highly profitable to advance to a next era as soon as possible, since this will unlock certain production buildings, unlock stronger military (land and naval) units and bigger merchant ships, lower the price on guns and cannons, increasing the demand of cash crops in Europe etc etc. Also, founding inland colonies is not permitted initially but must be unlocked by advancing to a higher era, which also limits the rather unrealistic explosive colonial expansion like the vanilla game. I think this era thing is brilliant; this gives the mid and late game way more immersion and “interim” goals instead of just expanding at your own pace without any real challenges.


    Choosing your starting units

    At the very beginning of the game (jan 1492) you can chose your two terrestrial starting units; it’s quite a small selection to pick from (veteran soldier, lumberjack, fisherman, carpenter and blacksmith), but is quite a nice strategical feature IMO.


    Map mechanics

    After every turn, the map closes around your units back to the units line of sight until they return to one of your settlements and the map will be revealed (albeit, under a fog of war as in a vanilla game). This way they simulate some difficulties of discovering the map and prevents you from a “fire-and-forget” scout that you set on auto-explore and reveals the whole map for you. Now, you have to manually explore the map, which makes exploration not as easy and unrealistic as in vanilla. Another nice feature is that you can transfer your map unto another ship or scout, so they can return it to a settlement of yours and reveal it. This way you can keep your explorer “in the field” and periodically send one of your ships to pick up the maps (and newly discovered crops as well, see the paragraph on discovering new world produce).


    Territorial influence tool

    Another nice feature is the Territorial influence tool which allows you to undo your cultural expansion. This really helps improve the strength of the native tribes, since it can prevent your encroaching cultural borders to “eat up” all the natives land and weaken their villages. And, since you can prevent your borders from taking over the native land, their attitude towards you doesn’t deteriorate as quick as it does normally. As a result, the natives can maintain their strength (if you allow them to) and so, diplomatic agreements with the natives such as a mutual defense pact, finally has a meaningful purpose since the natives maintain their numbers and thus strength.


    Discovering new world produce

    A lot of new world plants were unknown to the colonists. In DOANE, most cash crops must be discovered by visiting native villages specialized in them and bringing the crops to one of your settlements before you can grow them on your fields. Or you must buy/trade them from other colonial nations. Old world crops, like cotton, coffee and indigo, can be grown immediately. For historical accuracy, this is quite a good one IMO.


    Trade mechanics

    Trade mechanics are quite different compared to vanilla. First of all, trading with the natives is by bartering (just as it was back then) and only European trading involves money. Furthermore, tranding with the European port can be done the regular way (manually loading and offloading at the ports), or you can set up trade routes between your ports and europe which will run automatically and even regularly supply your ports with european goods. This way, you are not bothered by the dull standard trading of your colonies produce. If you trade regularly with a native village, they’ll offer you a highly profitable trade agreement; for example 20 trade goods for 85 peanuts (or cocoa or whatever they specialize in). This native trading aspect is quite immersive and enhances the currently quite dull native-colonial nation interaction.


    Europe screen

    The Europe screen is split in multiple screens; one Capaincy screen for managing your ships en route to and from the new world, one Ships screen where you can hire crews (when available), buy ships, and equip them with cannons and ammo, one Trading screen for well, trading and one Immigration screen for colonist selection and boarding them or selecting them to travel a trade route to a port in the new world. Colonist recruitment Not all colonists are available at the European docks instantly, like in vanilla. You have to recruit them by request. When you are in the Immigration screen, you must select a profession you’d like to recruit, for example a fisherman. Depending on how well you’re doing (yes, when your colonies suck, new colonists will not be persuaded easily to immigrate..), chances are that somewhere in the next few turns, a fisherman will appear at the docks. Then you have to negotiate a fee; some will come to your colonies for free (criminals and plain colonists mainly), but for the more specialized professions, you’ll have to pay up. You can try to negotiate a better price, but if you press too hard, the colonist can opt out and disappear from the docks. Again, quite realistic IMO.


    Latitude vs cash crops

    Not all terrains produce crops at a fixed rate; depending on latitude, proximity to a river and (I guess) some randomness, a tile can produce quite more than the same tile on an unfavourable spot. Every cash crop has their own optimal latitude where they can be grown the most efficiently. So no more unrealistic high yield tobacco producing cities at high latitudes. Crops must initially be planted by an agronomist (new type of profession) on an empty farm field constructed by a pioneer. The agronomist can upgrade the farm/plantation for a steep increasing price (and an increasing amount of turn consumption) to a higher level of production; depending on optimal latitude, proximity of rivers and some randomization, the upgrades can be up to level 7. This means not all land is equally valuable for colonization and you really have to look for the optimal locations to build your settlements since a city with some max.level 7 plantations can produce a crapload more than a settlement with only max.level 3 plantations.


    Automatically leveling up

    Scouts and ship crews (see later) automatically get experience by traveling. It’s not regular experience points were you can choose a skill, but they level up in movement points. For example; after 100 tiles traveled a ships crew levels up with +1 movement, capped at +3 after 300 tiles moves.


    Ships and crews

    What really immerses the naval aspect of the game is how DOANE has split the naval units into the crews (merchant crew vs combat crews) and the ships (which are by default without cannons or ammo and must be purchased or produced separately). Crews can gain experience through combat and can be swapped to other ships. This way, when in the later game more powerful combat ships become available, you can transfer your experienced crew to a new and stronger ship. Also, during naval combat, your ship uses ammunition. The amount of ammunition per combat action depends on the amount of canons the ship sports. Big ships = more cannons = more used ammo. Ammo is quite cheap to produce or buy, but cannons are quite expensive and since they are not an integrated part of the ship (see earlier), can be transferred in port to other ships.


    Income and expenditures

    In real life, colonization costs lotsa money and is not immediately profitable. In DOANE, this is represented with upkeep of units (both civilian and military), where the military units including ship upkeep is quite high, especially when outside cultural borders (the upkeep doubles). Employed colonist produces some money, but most of your income will be from trading with your home land or other colonial nations (remember; trading with natives is by bartering but can be very profitable when selling the goods in europe).
     
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  20. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Emperor

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    Germany
    Thank you for your explanations. I tried DOANE only once to see what they have done. And indeed, I also like some of their approaches:

    - Territorial influence tool
    - Discovering new world produce
    - Trade mechanics
    - Ships and crews

    Maybe there are some ideas for the future development. I assume we will have this in mind!
     
    Nebula213 likes this.

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