[RD] What motivates creationism?

Lohrenswald

世界的 bottom ranked physicist
Joined
Mar 4, 2013
Messages
6,264
Location
The end
and intelligent design "theory"

So in many parts of USA and probably elsewhere (not going to make fun of USA here, just laying ground for the topic), there are people in science and education ministry whatchamacallits for example saying global warming isn't real because god's promise to Noa of not destroying the earth again, and there's been made school textbooks teaching intelligent design instead of or as an alternative to evolution.

But why bother with the hassle of doing all this?

Some thoughts:

1. Scamming for money
This feels kinda odd, because there are a lot other things you could do to try and get easy money, I'd reckon. Getting into religion and quasi-science seems like a mess.

2. Genuine belief
Isn't it kinda weird as a devout christian to try and play by other rules? And if you know what you do is messed up (that say intelligent design is something you just made up, but you do believe in god), isn't that kinda immoral?

I'm getting kinda short on this. But I hope the basis for discussion is relatively clear.

Please don't divert the discussion to discuss creationist beleifs themselves versus science
 
How about culture clashes?
 
Please don't divert the discussion to discuss creationist beleifs themselves versus science

It's trollery. The science believers (not the science, or the scientists) are such a funny lot that trolling them is irresistible for some people.
 
I quoted that to remind myself not to cross that line.
 
and intelligent design "theory"

So in many parts of USA and probably elsewhere (not going to make fun of USA here, just laying ground for the topic), there are people in science and education ministry whatchamacallits for example saying global warming isn't real because god's promise to Noa of not destroying the earth again, and there's been made school textbooks teaching intelligent design instead of or as an alternative to evolution.

just because God promised to not destroy the earth anymore, that's just coal industry propaganda that wants to prove climate change dose not exist
It dose not mean he will not let us do it ourselves

As to the broader question I can hold the thought god created everything in 7 days and evolution happened over billions of years at the same time, no problem
some people can not chew gum and walk at the same time so must force their opinion on others to make sense of the world. This leads to apples are better than oranges arguments and some people not being able to like oranges and apples and walk at the same time
I don't think God foresaw this happening...
that's what I believe anyhow
 
just because God promised to not destroy the earth anymore, that's just coal industry propaganda that wants to prove climate change dose not exist
It dose not mean he will not let us do it ourselves

As to the broader question I can hold the thought god created everything in 7 days and evolution happened over billions of years at the same time, no problem
some people can not chew gum and walk at the same time so must force their opinion on others to make sense of the world. This leads to apples are better than oranges arguments and some people not being able to like oranges and apples and walk at the same time
I don't think God foresaw this happening...
that's what I believe anyhow

:goodjob:
 
God promised Noah that He would not destroy the earth again BY FLOOD. That's where we get rainbows from (Genesis 9). The next time God destroys the earth, it will be by fire. Global warming falls right into that; as do asteroids, or nuclear weapons.
 
I don't understand what you're trying to get at

It seems clear that people like their cultural ideologies and refuse to let others dictate what they are supposed to accept as reality.

If I forced you to accept something that does not make sense to you, would that motivate you to stand up for your accepted belief system?

It's trollery. The science believers (not the science, or the scientists) are such a funny lot that trolling them is irresistible for some people.

Some people just like to argue, but I doubt that is the only motivating factor for the majority of those who do not want their offspring to see the default option of the origin of life; "time" and "economy". Some of those people while unable to give direct answers, hate more, having to explain why they believe the way they do.

just because God promised to not destroy the earth anymore, that's just coal industry propaganda that wants to prove climate change dose not exist
It dose not mean he will not let us do it ourselves

As to the broader question I can hold the thought god created everything in 7 days and evolution happened over billions of years at the same time, no problem
some people can not chew gum and walk at the same time so must force their opinion on others to make sense of the world. This leads to apples are better than oranges arguments and some people not being able to like oranges and apples and walk at the same time
I don't think God foresaw this happening...
that's what I believe anyhow

I guess, I may be one of those who like to "argue/discuss" the issue in any form. LOL

What would prevent God from "foreseeing" this happen?

I am not sure that I can prove this, nor should it be taken as fodder to start calling science the new "Satan". Religion and science themselves are just tools used by humans to figure life out. Tools are not "Satan". Satan uses tools, but that is getting off topic.

From what I can figure out, the only difference between dogma and the scientific method is that the method accepts a "lie" as part of the solution and dogma only holds truth as it's source. A dogma can be just as wrong as it can be right. Technically from a human standpoint the truth may not always be what it seems.

The reason I say that is because of the falsification "clause". A theory cannot be science unless it contains a "lie" that can be proven as wrong. By definition a truth can never be a lie. The point being, we have no basis to keep accepting a truth if there is nothing observable to back that truth up. However if a truth is considered a truth at one time, does not mean that later it automatically looses it's truthfulness. It looses it's believability and the observation that a scientific method demands.

If a truth was never a truth, but a lie passed off as the truth, without the necessary observations, we can never know whether it was a lie or the truth at the time it was introduced into the human experience.

In that sense science is not any more an arbitrator of the truth than any religion, because eventually new information comes along that causes the whole theory to be "re-worked". Thus science can never be dogmatic nor the final authority on truth.

Of course God foreknew all of this logic and ability to keep to universal laws and the ability for humans to decide things on their own. Especially when it comes to figuring out what we do not know. Humans need both unchanging truth, and the ability to change what they think is the truth. The problem is when humans think they can "create" or "originate" truth solely on their imaginations, ability to reason, and physical observations. Humans can only discover the truth, or science forbid, a being outside the universe that can communicate a truth to everything in the universe, and assumingly has control and a say so in said universe.
 
the belief in stories told over thousands of years about god and existence

I suspect much of the religious world is creationist in the sense they accept those stories as more or less true

Science creates distance between us and a personal god who is all knowing and powerful, that leaves us with no gods or whatever is responsible

I'm kinda in the last camp
 
2. Genuine belief
Isn't it kinda weird as a devout christian to try and play by other rules? And if you know what you do is messed up (that say intelligent design is something you just made up, but you do believe in god), isn't that kinda immoral?

I don't understand this. I am Christian and I am an undecided on pure Creationism vs. theistic evolution. I'm not trying to "play by" anything--that is just my genuine belief. Albeit I am genuinely undecided.
 
There is no such thing as creationism vs 'theistic evolution'. Evolution is a concept in biology. Creationism, theism and other philosophical approaches have very little to say on biology proper.

In short, creationism says 'God created the universe'. Oddly, this doesn't conflict with evolutionary biology at all. Nor does the idea 'God created life', or 'God created life on Earth'. It becomes a little different when you claim 'God created Adam and Eve', because you can't create an entire species with just two specimens. That simply does not work, biologically. As anyone who has had high school level biology should know.

and intelligent design "theory"

So in many parts of USA and probably elsewhere (not going to make fun of USA here, just laying ground for the topic), there are people in science and education ministry whatchamacallits for example saying global warming isn't real because god's promise to Noa of not destroying the earth again, and there's been made school textbooks teaching intelligent design instead of or as an alternative to evolution.

I'm not sure if that's correct - if it is it is certainly worrying, as 'intelligent design' is not an alternative to evolutionary biology. It has, in fact, little to do with biology period.

I'm also not sure if creationism has any base outside of the USA. I've never heard of it in Western Europe, for example.*

* I must correct myself here. On mentioning dinosaurs to a young lady, I got the response: "I don't believe in such." So, it does exist. It just isn't very vocal.
 
and intelligent design "theory"

So in many parts of USA and probably elsewhere (not going to make fun of USA here, just laying ground for the topic), there are people in science and education ministry whatchamacallits for example saying global warming isn't real because god's promise to Noah of not destroying the earth again, and there's been made school textbooks teaching intelligent design instead of or as an alternative to evolution.

But why bother with the hassle of doing all this?

Some thoughts:

1. Scamming for money
This feels kinda odd, because there are a lot other things you could do to try and get easy money, I'd reckon. Getting into religion and quasi-science seems like a mess.

2. Genuine belief
Isn't it kinda weird as a devout christian to try and play by other rules? And if you know what you do is messed up (that say intelligent design is something you just made up, but you do believe in god), isn't that kinda immoral?

I'm getting kinda short on this. But I hope the basis for discussion is relatively clear.

Please don't divert the discussion to discuss creationist beleifs themselves versus science
There are always folks who do things just for the money, power prestige etc. Most people who have strong religious beliefs don't.

Strong beliefs are often not rational and can embed themselves into a person's psyche very deeply. Once there, threats to removing them can be very scary and uncomfortable for people. We build our lives and egos around strong beliefs and they enable people to lead what they feel is an orderly and purposeful life. Transformational events like "being born again", mystical experiences, near death experiences, can rebuild the foundations on which people live their lives.

If those beliefs tell you to spread the news to others, then that is what many folks will do. If prophecy is part of those beliefs, then ones beliefs can be put to a very real test. Failed prophecy is one thing that can shake the foundations of belief.
 
I don't understand this. I am Christian and I am an undecided on pure Creationism vs. theistic evolution. I'm not trying to "play by" anything--that is just my genuine belief. Albeit I am genuinely undecided.

I think the point is how can you believe in God and then makeup God at the same time. First of all attempting to associate creation with science is technically forming some new belief.

Neither can a science form belief systems, else they tend to be just as dogmatic. I am pretty sure there are those who do not want to associate science with religion. I pointed out in the other thread that the Genesis account is technically not a religion. There are some who may think that an encounter with a famous person is some "religious" experience, but it was just a physical reality.

I question any one who thinks the account is even inspired by God. Technically God the entity gave it to the Hebrews, and they did not make up God as part of some religion or even religious practice.

I never associated the account of creation as a way to refute evolution. Evolution has been used by some humans to refute creation. I just got done reading the "Creation/evolution Controversy", that was heavily biased in favor of evolution. Whether it was planned or not, the side of creation science really had no chance of winning their argument. I see no immoral reason for one in a democratic society to stand up for their beliefs, even if I do not agree with them. It is only immoral when a human attempts to force their opinions on others. If that is what the OP was going for, in # 2, that can be understandable. The whole controversy had to do with the education system. Any economic factor came into play on the side of the textbook companies and never on the side of creation science. From what I read, for the most part during the controversy no creation science group had any vested interest in any textbooks. They lost the controversy, and no public school would ever touch their textbooks, even if it was legal for them to do so.

For one thing attempting to establish legislation in favor of one group or the other is walking a thin line between what is right and what is wrong on a moral basis. Creation Science was wrong in any attempt to force only one theory taught. For the most part, they attempted to keep evolution out, or if it was taught there would be equal time.

I am not sure that any one will ever convince another that the Genesis account is a theory. Even at the time it was proposed. That seemed more like a borrowed phrase from science to "enhance" the creationist side of the controversy. The whole issue was brought to the public by scientist, and was directed at the textbook industry. Of course when the scientific community finally got into the controversy, they claimed that the scientist on the creationist side were not actually scientist and had besmirched the name of science to even call it a theory. I agree it is wrong to call a fact a theory, but I digress.

The irony of it all is that the scientific community had to get religion on their side to prove that teaching creationism was wrong. I guess neither side could muster their own ability to defend their own ideology.

Since evolution is the default answer in practically every public form of life, it would probably be futile to ever have that culture war again. Technically teaching evolution is not forcing a belief system on another human. Neither would teaching creation, albeit such ideology would pretty much confuse a child, just like at one time, evolution was thought to have been the means to confuse children. Some have just reconciled the two as in there cannot be any controversy on the mere fact there is no controversy. It would seem that unless one was actually told that either was wrong (and convinced one way or the other), or that one had to choose between the two, else the world would end. Yes there are some who believe that if one rejects evolution the whole world would fall apart. At one point it was even a choice between Darwin or God.

The reason that Creationist lost the battle was their inability to give up their religion. That could have been a moral issue as pointed out in #2. I would like to point out though, that has nothing to do with the Bible or even the Genesis account. It has to do with the perceived notion of what religion even is. I cannot change the belief that the Bible is just some religious text, because to most humans, even atheist, it is. However that belief does not make it a fact, no matter how dogmatic one may be on the issue. Take it or leave it, I am not going to make it a dogmatic issue either.
 
There is no such thing as creationism vs 'theistic evolution'. Evolution is a concept in biology. Creationism, theism and other philosophical approaches have very little to say on biology proper.

In short, creationism says 'God created the universe'. Oddly, this doesn't conflict with evolutionary biology at all. Nor does the idea 'God created life', or 'God created life on Earth'.

You just expressed theistic evolution. I said pure Creationism, which means no evolution.
 
I think the point is how can you believe in God and then makeup God at the same time. First of all attempting to associate creation with science is technically forming some new belief.

How do you figure anyone is believing in God and making Him up at the same time?

And how is fusing God with science a new belief? Who do you think created science? Those atoms that formed earth--that's God. 9.8m/s^2, that's God. That little speck that started the Big Bang (presuming that theory is true)--God made the speck. He created science--that does not mean He is a slave to it. The New Testament is clear, science answers to Him--not the other way around. All science is, is the study of what God did. He already did it--a long time ago. We just don't understand it.
 
How do you figure anyone is believing in God and making Him up at the same time?

I don't. Those who do not accept God, think that those who do, have made God up, or were indoctrinated that God actually exist. I am not sure why some younger people today think that fundamentalist made God up just to prove that Genesis is true. Also some people think that it is immoral to question the dogma of established religion. Creation has always been the act of God, and not some made up story to explain the beginning of the universe. Evolution is an actual process, but during the process of humans defending their newest revelation, it became the default answer for how the universe was manifested to refute the so called "ill attempt" at the ancients "stab in the dark".

And how is fusing God with science a new belief? Who do you think created science? Those atoms that formed earth--that's God. 9.8m/s^2, that's God. That little speck that started the Big Bang (presuming that theory is true)--God made the speck. He created science--that does not mean He is a slave to it. The New Testament is clear, science answers to Him--not the other way around. All science is, is the study of what God did. He already did it--a long time ago. We just don't understand it.

The way that Scientific Creationism has been portrayed and subsequently rejected is because it was viewed as a new belief to reconcile Genesis to science.

You cannot fuse God with science, because science came from God. No one can change another person's belief system either. You can change you own, or sometimes God has a way of doing it for you. That would be the difference between determinism, and election. The whole issue seemed to come up as a cultural clash of ideologies. Ideologies between "religious" belief and science. Neither sides were consciously creating anything new, but that is the "straw man" logic that ended up making the whole thing debatable and ultimately winnable. It would seem that every time humans want equal rights, religion always looses, because it is not up to religion to make policies. But yet humans have a tendency to view and use religion to that end. Indoctrination may work in a closed system, without any outside interference, but it hardly works in a multi-cultural world with the advent of the free exchange of ideas. The separation of church and state may seem to be an attempt to allow indoctrination to thrive, but it was intended for just the opposite. Religion is the tightest form of belief and the hardest to change. The separation of church and state was not to keep humans away from God, but away from a concept that limited a human ability to exercise free conscious. Religion hinders the free flow of ideas in an ever changing world. But to stand up and voice ones opinions is not morally wrong, no matter how much the opposition spins it.
 
Top Bottom