What new wonders would you like to see in civ VII?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Ranger0001, Nov 14, 2021.

  1. Zaarin

    Zaarin Diplomatic Attaché to Londo Mollari

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    Really we need a new category of Prehistoric Wonders for things like Mesa Verde, Göbekli Tepe, Stonehenge, Newgrange, and the like--wonders that are manmade but predate recorded history.
     
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  2. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    In one of the earlier Civs (Pre-Civ V) the 'goody huts' were actually represented on the map by tiny Stonehenge-like monuments. So, one way to represent Pre-Historic Monuments/Wonders if they don't want to back-date Civ and make Neolithic a playable Era would be to have a few such scattered about the starting Map as Mysterious Things Made Long Ago By Gods Or Giants with suitable bonuses.

    The problem with this is that it makes the start of game an impossible Design Dilemma: if the Ancient Wonders are worth too much or give too valuable a Bonus, then some players will just restart until they get one nearby. If they don't give much of a Bonus why include them at all except as Eye Candy?

    On the other hand, if they include a 'real' Neolithic Start, then the Ancient Wonders would be a marvelous addition to give the gamer another sweat-popping Decision Point: some Wonders (indeed, at the moment it appears Most of Them)* can be built without a City anywhere nearby, so your little wandering Tribe(s) or incipient Settlement can go to work on one - but probably will lose a huge percentage of Production/Food or other resources that may set your initial progress back. So, Crunch Time: is the bonus from the AW going to be worth what you give up for it? - A decision that will change depending on the starting position, terrain, neighbors, and thus be different in almost every game.

    * But there's an important Exception, of course: nearly the first city, Uruk (Orekh, Unug, Orkhoe, Auruk, or Erech) was built around two pre-existing 'Temple Districts/Mounds' Eanna and Kullaba. Either or both of them could be Ancient Wonders that when built immediately Jump Start your first city, and might even form an 'automatic' Holy Site and City Center as soon as they are completed. Uruk had an estimated 80,000 population well before 3000 BCE, so 'jump start' is very appropriate here.
     
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  3. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    Yeah, these neolithic wonders should be the option for the pre-game, i.e. neolithic era: Do I use my scouts to explore or do I build a wonder. I do think they afterwards (apart from maybe the Eanna and Kullaba example ;-)) should have served their purpose and be abandonable. Stonehenge was "forgotten" after all and didn't contribute to the English civ for a long time. And the cities don't need to pop up besides them in my opinion.

    More generally, I'm all for diverse wonders: A military wonder doesn't necessarily require much production of which a military expansive civ wouldn't necessarily have too many. Wonders should be available to all playstyles. And if they are not monumental, they also don't need to take up a whole tile. There's lots of stuff they can do with them. The selection of which wonders get into the game comes afterwards. What's important to me though is that it's a balanced number from all eras and all corners of the earth.
     
  4. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    Completely agree.
    Having done some searching already, though, I can tell you that some parts of the world are kind of "wonder lite" from pre-history. The problem isn't that people weren't doing wonderous things and constructions, but that the only things that survive to be identified from the Neolithic tend to be made of stone or composed of earth mounds, so, for example, in central China where good building stone is buried under river-deposited silt and earth mounds tend to get dug up and re-used in rammed earth construction, there just aren't a lot of identifiable neolithic monuments.
    Which doesn't mean there are none: less than an hour ago I read a science article from Canada: they re-introduced Bison to one of the Dakota tribal areas up there and the animals promptly uncovered a bunch of petroglyphic monuments that no one even had a clue ever existed - 1000 to 1800 years old, so firmly in the Neolithic for North America and utterly unexpected in what was part of the North American Prairie and supposedly lightly inhabited at the time.

    So, we just have to keep our eyes open, and if necessary ignore TSL for Neolithic Monuments. Given that most of them cannot be assigned to any identifiable civilization (the Neolithic archeological sites are often separated from any later 'civilization' in the area by 1000s of years) their cultural identification is less important than the terrain requirements, if any: nobody is going to build the Goseck Circle ( a 'wood henge' astronomical calendar monument in Germany made entirely of wood from around 4900 BCE) in the desert, for example, but Carnac stones can be erected anywhere you can find large rocks . . .
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
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  5. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    I'd like to see Gobekli Tepe, but it doesn't fit Civ's time scheme, since it was a megalithic structure that predates...almost everything except hunting and gathering.

    For a natural wonder, I'd like to see Lake Maracaibo and its Catatumbo Lightning.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catatumbo_lightning
     
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  6. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    Gobekli Tepe is the subject of some considerable argument among archeologists now, because the carbon dates (of stuff found around the stone megaliths, so tentative) place the first monuments at about 9400 BCE, the last at about 8000 BCE. 9400 is just at or before the first traces of agriculture and domestic animals (sheep, goats, pigs) in the surrounding regions, but at least 1000 years before the first 'city' (Jericho). Whether the incipient agriculture came before or after the monuments is the crux of the arguments.

    Which is why we need a new category of Ancient Wonders to cover constructions like Gobekli Tepe and others (the Carnac Sones, Newgrange, Goslek, etc) that were built well before cities were built anywhere near them: as the game as always been designed, without a city you can't claim terrain/tiles and build anything, so the AW will need a whole new system of settlement to include them.
     
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  7. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    You know what might be a cool way to do that? Have it as a reward from a goodie hut. The wonder gets erected right there in the middle of nowhere. Now you have an incentive to build a city nearby. Maybe it is enticing enough to motivate you. But maybe the terrain just doesn't work or it's too far from your capital for the early game, and the thing fades into obscurity. It would be interesting from the gameplay perspective, I think.
     
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  8. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    Very, very good idea. I was doodling around last night trying to figure out a mechanic for the Ancient Wonders and potential Bonuses from some of them, and always came back to the fact that an elaborate mechanism for building a special category of Wonders is a lot of game design resources going into sites and constructions many of which, by the time the first City was built anywhere near them or the first recognizable Civilization arose nearby, had been long abandoned and meant nothing to the Civ growing up around them.

    Abandoned Ancient Wonders would always have the potential to provide a Tourist bonus (or, if Civ VII abandons Tourism as a currency in the game, Cultural or Religious Bonus of some kind) and, of course, would be potential sites for Archeologists' attentions. In fact, one of the much later bonuses from such a site could be that Archeologists can keep coming back to the site for X turns, finding a potential new 'exhibit' each time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2021 at 7:29 PM
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