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What other Civs would you like to see added to DoC

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by AtlantaMarty, Apr 18, 2017.

  1. AtlantaMarty

    AtlantaMarty No longer active

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    In my opinion

    1. Make the Celtic civilization playable, instead of just being a NPC. They should respawn as Ireland c. 1920.

    2. Turkestan, led by Tamerlane. This would lead to a more realistic Central Asia, and give the Russian and Iranian civilizations more of a challenge. They could become the Khanate of Bokhara c. 1500.

    3. & 4. Australia and South Africa, which are the only major post-colonial civilization that are missing. South Africa could be a respawn of the Zulu, who could initially spawn c. 1700, and cause trouble for the British in Southern Africa.

    5. A Nubian civilization would be nice
     
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  2. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    Well, why not? It's fun to dream, anyway.

    I agree about the Celts, the Turkic Central Asian Civ, and the Australians and South Africans. I don't think the Nubians would be very interesting, though.

    I'd also love to see these civs:
    - Ancient Israel, as an OCC
    - The Papal States, also as an OCC, starting after the fall of the Roman Empire
    - The Kilwa Sultanate
    - The Vietnamese, starting at the Dai Viet period
    - Nigeria, although I'm not sure if the Yoruba or the Hausa would be better to represent them
    - a Native North American Civ, maybe the Pueblo, the Iroquois, or the Sioux.

    Also,
    - the Malay (Srivijaya) and the Javanese (Majapahit) differentiated
    - Kievan Rus and Muscovy differentiated
    - Sweden, starting at the period of the Swedish Empire, differentiated from Denmark/Norway
     
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  3. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

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    Katagalugan!

    We could have all different types of native Filipino civilizations. The historical narrative that comes to mind is a Muslim civ that spawns in the south and sometimes founds Manila, with a post-Spanish respawn as the various modern republics. This would also help the spread of Islam to Indonesia and Malaysia, heavily lacking from the mod.

    The best Native American civs would be the Inuit (to fill land and make use of tundra in Canada), one of the Plains nations (so that resistance to American expansion doesn't come from barbarians) and a native Amazonian civilization.

    I agree with everything else you have said, but especially Australia and Zulu/South Africa. I'd argue for an Aboriginal Australian civilization too, that then respawns later on, but this situation is more complex given the horrific genocide and all.

    I think we're lacking the Manchus and that Civ in general has always severely lacked this historically very important and heavily impacting East Asian civ.

    In terms of Europe I'd say it's already a bit cluttered, but that I think there should be some sort of Magyar civ or southern Slav representative.
     
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  4. star15389

    star15389 Prince

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    Making a Celtic, Native American, or Zulu civilization would run into the problem that the AI would rarely destroy them as it should. Ireland/Scotland version of Celtia would also weaken England excessively when in AI hands it's already underpowered. Australia and South Africa similarly; England shouldn't lose *all* its colonies, especially to hostile civs like the current iteration of Canada. Turks are probably best represented as barbarians; CIV isn't the kind of game that can represent short-lived states like Hephthalite Empire or the Liao Dynasty well. It would be cool to have a Swahili civ though
     
  5. AtlantaMarty

    AtlantaMarty No longer active

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    I like the idea of splitting Muscovy and the Kievans. Novgorod would be interesting, but probably excessive.

    Manchurians could be interesting. I don't think that the Eskimos/Inuit were ever centralized enough to merit a civ.

    AI Britain could receive conquerors for the Celts, Zulu, and Natives, and should probably lose virtually all of their colonies, like in real life.

    A Hungarian or Serbian civ would be interesting.
     
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  6. Ani Taneen

    Ani Taneen Warlord

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    I'd make the argument for more "upon collapse" civ spawning. These are civs that come into being when a civilization has conquered the appropriate region and has the "appropriate" stability. case in point is the byzantine empire spawns if roman conditions are met.
    I'd make the argument that upon Mongolian collapse the following civs should spawn:

    1. Kipchak Khanate - If the Mongols control any cities in Russia
    • in 1456 their core moves to khazakstan and they become the Qazaq Khanate
    1. Ilkhanate/Timurid - If the Mongols control any cities in Persia
    • They can then be reformed as the Khanate of Bukhara
    On the note of central Asia, the Kushan Empire could make a great addition.

    I should note that the above mentioned suggestions are partially moot, the map does not reflect central Asia's size to properly accommodate these civs. I'd recommend returning to your previous idea of the Yuge Map

    I'd make the argument, again, for a collapsing England to be necessary for the AI to spawn these civ's

    Actually it would be great if we could have a "spawn as vassal" system in place. it could make decolonization much easier.
     
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  7. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

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    Can we all at least agree that between the Zulu and the Swahili Coast and Great Zimbabwe and etc etc there should be SOME civilization in Southern Africa?

    Then from there it shouldn't be such a stretch to agree with a respawn as South Africa. Also, I think at the very least a Māori civ makes sense in terms of Oceania. They were extremely relevant, maybe even hyperpowerful, in their sphere of influence, and there were enough structured polities to merit consideration as a civilization. They also went on to be a serious thorn in the side of Britain colonizing New Zealand.

    Anyways, I think there should be a Macedon civ. This way you could differentiate between the empire-building "Greeks" and the wonder-building Greeks, AND have a Yugoslavia-type civ to fill the Balkans (which often get taken by Germany in the modern days in my games), killing lots of Europe birds with one stone.
     
  8. AtlantaMarty

    AtlantaMarty No longer active

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    Yes, I would like to see the Zulu. I don't know if the Swahilis were ever unified enough to justify a civ. Great Zimbabwe is too small too make a good civ, and its impact on world history was virtually nil. A Rhodesia civ that breaks away from Britain in 1965 could add some excitement to the very late game, though.

    Making the Polynesians appear as an AI civ would be a better idea IMO, because the Maori are Polynesians and the Polynesians are already in the game.

    I don't think the map or timeline is detailed enough to justify that. A Hungarian or Serbian civ could be interesting.

    A lot of these new civ ideas would work better if Leoreth stretched the map by 1.5X in both directions (for a map 2.25X the size of the current one), but I highly doubt that will ever happen.
     
  9. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

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    That's fair, although eastern African coastal trade was very influential in terms of the Middle Ages in the whole Indian Ocean-- at the least it was influential as the Malinese trans-Saharan trade.

    This is the same problem as Swahili, though, there was never by any stretch of any imagination unified trans-Polynesian polities. If we have Austrians and Germans, if there's interest in Kievans and Muscovites, there should definitely be multiple different Polynesian civilizations, prominent among them the Māori.

    I think a Magyar civ or Bulgar civ would be my vote. Bulgaria sort of unified the entire Balkans during the early Middle Ages, but one problem is it doesn't make any sense for them to respawn as Yugoslavia.

    I think we could definitely fit a central Asian civ, a southern African civ, and an Oceanian civ without much of a map size problem.
     
  10. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    I think whatever new civs there are, they will have to make do with the map as we have it. Some regions can be enlarged (some regions badly need being enlarged), but we shouldn't count on the map as a whole being enlarged.

    The Maori are not a good idea, there is not much to their interactions with the Polynesians to justify a new civ. Making the Polynesians be there all the time, and include the Maori with them up until the Europeans arrive, could be more interesting.

    I really, really like the idea of civs spawning as vassals, and of the human player to play parts of the game as a vassal (including having to fight its independence war). Every New World Civ (in the Americas and Australia) and every post-colonial civ in Africa & Asia could become much more interesting like this. The conquistador mechanic makes for a very uninspiring game if defeat is inevitable or if avoiding it requires obsessing with military production, when you're interested in other aspects of the game. And European civs should lose all their colonies - that's what happened in real life. If Britain keeps an island here and there, that's fine, but no more than that. Instead, we should think of ways to make these civs stay powerful and wealthy after losing their colonies, so that power is not tightly coupled to territorial extent.
     
  11. Malchar

    Malchar Prince

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    I think that independent or barbarian cities are a sufficient representation for many of the civs that have been suggested. With all due respect, many of these civs merely occupy an otherwise empty area of the map without doing anything particularly interesting. They never really achieved a particularly large or noteworthy empire. For example, I believe that the Zulu Kingdom at its maximum extent would cover an area of no more than three cities. These civs generally were not players on the international stage and they did not typically conquer the territories of any other civ. Rather, they are only noteworthy because they were the ones being conquered. For all purposes, having them represented as independent cities or barbarians is more than sufficient.

    That being said, and I know that there are probably 10 other threads discussing which civs to add, I think that Naples will make for an interesting civ. Change Italy to Naples and have them spawn earlier, around 1050 or 1100. It would be a European power in the Mediterranean to counterbalance Byzantium and the onslaught of Islamic civs in North Africa. You can try to capture Dalmatia, the Greek islands, and North Africa, and then try to unify Italy, taking some land from Holy Rome/Austria.
     
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  12. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    "Zulus are irrelevant need more Naples" is not a post I expected to see here :lol:
     
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  13. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    This quote made me so excited I couldn't wait for those changes anymore, so I started updating my Sweden modcomp last weekend. I made plans to update Novicenoble's Australia and South Africa.

    I also did some brainstorming about an Eastern African civ. I actually only need one more good UHV. I'm satisfied with the UU, UB, UP and other UHV I came up with. After I'm done with Sweden, I want to start wit this one.

    I don't know if I release these civs before the big overhaul or not.

    Other civs I'm considering:
    Celts
    Egypt respawn as Mamluks or something
    Hungary
    Philippines
    Modern Iraq
    The last 2 are only up for consideration if they don't start too late. It's no fun if you only have a few turns to play.

    For those who can't wait, some civs are already made once, although being on an older version of DoC. See the second post of this thread.
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/forum-thread-index.533871/

    (I also like the Kievan-Moscow split and the Turkestan civs, but as those are in the pipeline already IIRC)
     
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  14. need my speed

    need my speed Rex Omnium Imperarium

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    How about adding Yemen? It has a long-ish history and can have a unique playthrough with colonising east Africa (and the horn of Africa as well, giving Ethiopia a new player to contend with), a place discussed above.
     
  15. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

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    My comprehensive list:

    -Israel + respawn
    -Bab respawn as Iraq
    -Zulu + South Africa respawn
    -Moro/Sulu > modern Philippines
    -Bulgars, Magyars, Macedonians, Serbians; some Balkan native, though one should be enough. Maybe Romania
    -Central Asian Turkic civ, probably Khazars
    -I don't like the idea of a Celtic civ, although multiple separate ones is okay
    -Same with with "Polynesian" civ; Tonga, Hawaii, Māori etc should all be separate
    -Aboriginal Australians + respawn
    -Great Plains people (could be Navajo, Sioux, Shoshone)
    -Inuits
    -Native Amazon civ
    -Great Zimbabwe or other Swahili coast
    -Manchus
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
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  16. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Definitely. I kind of like the EU concept of "releaseable tags", where not every existing faction is guaranteed to be in the game. We already have some of this, some civs never spawn, some only on specific conditions, some always. I'd like to reduce the number of always spawning civs even. Civs that can appear on collapse are definitely a good idea.
     
  17. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

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    I think that the rise of the post-Roman states should be handled differently; with the AI, I normally see Rome collapse around 200 CE, while with players Rome can stick around and indeed prosper well beyond the spawn of France and Spain and such.

    However these civs always have a very rigid spawn, regardless of how their parent civilization acts.
     
  18. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    That point comes up every once in a while, but at some point you just have to correct for divergence.
     
  19. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

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    If we're gonna try to implement vassal spawning, why not have them spawn as vassals to Rome based on Rome's stability or something like that?
     
  20. Ani Taneen

    Ani Taneen Warlord

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    Which also goes hand in hand with the need for a civil war mechanic. Some civs are justifiably spawned this way. And some civs (*cough* post roman Latin feudal states *cough*) would mimic that system.
     

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