1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

what promotion best for catapult?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by teoks, Nov 25, 2005.

  1. teoks

    teoks Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2005
    Messages:
    27
    i have finally learnt the wonders of the Catapult :D

    right now though im wondering which promotion is best:
    1) city raider
    2) drll
    3) barrage

    i left out accuracy since i attack with 4-5 catapults so i can reduce his defenses to rubble in 2 turns anyway. so far ive gone for maxing the city raider line, as the bonus would help in its survivability during suicide runs. but now im wondering if drill would get the job done as well. do the first strikes do collateral damage?

    im thinking that a barrage I or barrage II would be nice for freshly built catapults built to sacrifice themselves during city attacks. but maxing barrage for a high level catapult doesnt seem to be worth it. +100% collateral damage looks nice but afaik units cant be damaged below 50% of their health via collateral, so barrage III seems wasted.

    i wish catapults had flanking =/
     
  2. remconius

    remconius Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,470
    Location:
    Amstelveen, NL
    barrage I & city bombard for defenses
    barrage I & II for collateral damage catapults.

    City raider and drill are only useful if you outtech the enemy and your siege are level with their defense.
     
  3. R3dKnight

    R3dKnight Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2001
    Messages:
    200
    Location:
    Singapore
    Drill IMO.
    I never expected the siege weapon to survive unless his strength outmatches the defender by at least 10-20%. But no way in hell that would happen.

    Catapult 5 vs
    Fortified Archer 3 + Fort Bonus 25% + City Defence 25%, Pretty OK
    Longbowman 6+ Fort bonus 25% + City Defence 25%, Not so good
    Musketman 9 + Fort bonus 25% , Very Bad
    Rifle + Grenadier and above 12-15+ , It's time to get the Cannon sirrah.

    Cannon 12 vs
    Longbowman 6 + 25% Fort + 25% City + 20% City garrison promotion. Bad
    Rifle / Grenadier 12 / 15 + 25% Fort +20% City Promotion. Not very good IMO

    All in all, the siege equipment is meant to be sacrificed whenever you expect to deal direct collateral damage to the stacks inside the defence.

    The good thing with this is, the more collateral you're doing, the higher chances for next siege equipment to survive their attempt. I'm arguing whether First Strike + Barrage is worth the power. Or maybe City Raider to increase survival chances. But IMO. You're gonna go up against the very strongest defender on your first attempt, so go with the least experienced siege weapon you've got. Followed up with more experienced ones so at least they can survive to get more upgrades. THis is why I give the freshly-made ones First Strikes and if they still have extra EXP for next promotion, I'll give them Barrage for that extra kick. First strikes helps to deal damage. And collateral does happen for every damage they inflict. And with good luck, the catapult might just withdraw after inflicting a sizable chunk of collateral dmg.

    Note: a badly damaged siege unit still performs the same amount of bombardment % dmg. So if you really hate waiting for the unit to resume full repairs and just want the bombardment, let it tag along with your main force.
     
  4. R3dKnight

    R3dKnight Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2001
    Messages:
    200
    Location:
    Singapore
    On a side note, there's a huge absence of a middle-siege unit representation in the game. I find it quite depressing I'm stuck with catapult even after I get Knights. IMO there should be an 7 or 8 Strength siege unit lying somewhere between catapult and cannon or at least let a tech add +2 Strength to catapults, Engineering anyone? with better engineering, siege equips should improve IMO. +1 Strength there and maybe another +1 somewhere.
     
  5. yatusk

    yatusk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    51
    I think it's right that there's nothing between catapults and cannons...matches the historical period correctly (age of knights was a very defensive period where castles were damned near impregnable). also catapults were the only tool even then (they were "better" catapults, but catapults nonetheless). what do you have in mind for a unit between catapults and cannons?
     
  6. seasmath

    seasmath Bolos!

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2005
    Messages:
    248
    Location:
    somewhere
    Trebuchets anyone?
     
  7. Gufnork

    Gufnork Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2005
    Messages:
    440
    I think the biggest problem is that Cannon comes too late.

    There is only one promotion for Catapults, Barrage. Without it they're useless. If your opponent only has archers you might want to give any lucky catapults City Raider as their second promotion to get atleast one good catapult. But suiciders should always get Barrage.
     
  8. dar

    dar Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2005
    Messages:
    79
    I don't see what the fuss is about. Catapults are cost effective even in the late middle ages.
     
  9. Astax

    Astax Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Messages:
    556
    That would rule, but problem witht hem was they were very immobile. So to have the work as a combat unit would be very odd. Yeah waiting for the cannon really bites!
     
  10. yoshi74

    yoshi74 Tourist from Mars

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Messages:
    1,197
    Location:
    Halle/Germany
    Barrage for the first ones, who are likely suicide cats. After one or two a city raider cat is imo much more usefull, because it actually has a good chance to win the combat, kill a unit right on and survive the combat. A city raider 3 cat is a really nice thing against longbows.
     
  11. TLHeart

    TLHeart Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2005
    Messages:
    615
    City raider for all my cats...I have had more of them survive after the first suicide run, and the collateral damage has been done. Then I have more cats with city raider 3, which will survive against longbowmen, and do serious damage to muskets. The prgression continues with using the newer for the first suicide run, and using my promoted cats for the next run. I have as many cats as they have defenders in the city when I am attacking.
     
  12. Heroes

    Heroes Heroes of Might and Magic

    Joined:
    May 19, 2005
    Messages:
    869
    I prefer city raider, because I want them to have higher chance to survive. But maybe it's not always right. If some one could do a mathematical analysis, it would be great ...
     
  13. cleverhandle

    cleverhandle Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    698
    Location:
    Chicago, IL, USA
    One advantage of city raider, apart from survivability, is the added damage they will likely do to the primary defender. If you're basically planning on sacrificing two cats in an attack, having city raider promos instead of barrage means that the two best defenders will (usually) take some extra damage. That could be an advantage - if the enemy has two strong defenders and then a bunch of crappy ones I'm more concerned about damaging the strong ones since my foot troops can beat the crappy ones without losses anyway.

    It's a tough call all around though, I haven't really come to any solid conclusion yet.
     
  14. eg577

    eg577 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2002
    Messages:
    211
    Increasing your attack increases your chance to hit and increases the damage per hit. You'll notice from the corresponding formula though (see 'combat explained' strategy article) that increasing your attack by 20% doesn't get a 20% increase in either one. Combined however, the increase in average damage output per round will end up being around 20%. The same goes with higher level bonuses.

    Calculating the increase in average damage output for a barrage promotion is relatively easy if you ignore the fact that barrage promotions don't help versus the original unit being attacked. In other words we'll take barrage I as a +20% damage output.

    I did a slew of caclulations for d=6 and d=12 and with defender bonuses 0, +25%, +50%, +75% and +100%. For each I compared city raider level I,II,III to the same level of barrage using the "average damage output" measure. The comparison was close, but barrage was usually ahead. City raider ranged from 15 percentage points worse to 5 points better. City raider seems do the worst when the defender bonus is much larger than the city raider bonus. City raider seems to do best when the it "crosses the line", so to speak, i.e. if it shifts the overall bonus from +50% to the defender to +25% to the attacker.

    Extra things to keep in mind:
    1) This method of comparision gives a slight edge to barrage since we pretended that the extra barrage damage also affects the original defender.
    2) Barrage is effective against stacks in the field whereas city raider is useless.
    3) If the city raider bonus would cross a jump point -- which are points where an increase in the attack result in the defender needing one more hit to kill the catapult -- the city raider bonus will consistently pull ahead of barrage. This is because increasing the number of hits from 4 to 5 is like multplying the average damage output by 1.25 after all else is calculated.
     
  15. MeteorPunch

    MeteorPunch #WINNING Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    4,785
    Location:
    TN-USA
    I don't know what the math is, but usually first attack with a couple collateral damagers (suicide), then city raiders (if I think they can win).
     
  16. smartus

    smartus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Messages:
    51
    Location:
    Prague, Olomouc, CZE
    I have a very fresh experience from a multiplayer game. I was attacked by joint forces of two players. Their stack consisted of Horse Archers and Praetorians, guarded by a bunch of spearmen and archers. The situation was desperate, but I managed to get enough catapults to the border and with a few suicide runs I hurt them so much, that they actually stopped outside the city in the forest (distance 2) to heal. They were too afraid to move closer. The horse archers could reach the city in one turn, but they suck when attacking cities. So I had some time to whip some catapults. I had a military instructor and barracs, so I could promote the cats to level 3. I was choosing between Barrage II (it has some percentage vs. melee units) and Drill II. The Drill II had better results. Barrage II cat couldn't hurt the firts Praetorian (8 + 50% forest), but it did some collateral damage. But the Drill II cat was able to hit the Praetorian and reduce his str to 7.1. So I recommend the Drill II for "active defender" catapult.

    Attacking a city is a different story. I would combine Drill and CR cats in a stack, but I usually prefer CR cats when attacking cities.
     
  17. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,578
    Location:
    Netherlands
    I usually give cats city raider exactly for the reasons you give here. And i'm also not sure if that's right. Barrage probably works better against 4 more or less equally promoted longbows. As others commented apart from the advantage against the first strong defender a CR3 cat always has some chances and you can't get them without beginning with CR promotions. Also upgrades to later cannons are a bit more attractive with CR3.
     
  18. Reprisal

    Reprisal Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2002
    Messages:
    217
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    If you're big on retaining your non-suicide catapults, it might be wise to actually promote them with Drill against leaders with the Protective trait or those with a archery-based UU. As far as I know, the first strikes on an attacker counter the first strikes of a defender, but I'm not sure. Can anyone confirm?
     
  19. Maydrock

    Maydrock Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2007
    Messages:
    328
    Location:
    CT
    Agreed.

    Beelining to chemistry makes strat alot of fun. I give all my main stack cats CR promos. That also allows me to only have to concentrate on defenders for other units. And, grenadier/cannons combo has a really long life span for tons of skirmishes and GGP's. And that all winds up with a HE city pumpin out Level III or IV units!
     
  20. LuckyAC

    LuckyAC Immortal

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    569
    Wow, good predictions re. trebuchets.
     

Share This Page