What shall we research next?

What would you like to see done?


  • Total voters
    258

Rhye

's and Fall creator
Joined
May 23, 2001
Messages
9,788
Location
Japan / South America
This is a poll about what shall I do once I'm free from real world duties.
I will be at Elba until late June, and I may have some free time in the summer, if things don't change unexpectedly.

So, at first I'll develop a small patch for RFC (perhaps containing a couple of new leaderheads) and one for RFC RAND.

After that, I have a few possible things to do. If I have time, I may do more than one (and if I don't have any, I may do nothing...). So, show your preference.

In detail:

1 - Further RFC development
That means developing the religions more, with both old polytheisms and modern schisms. And maybe a few more ideas. Will require help for localisation.

2 - New UHVs expansion pack
A small package that adds 3 more victory conditions for each civ. I've already thought of a few ones. No localisation is needed, but for sure it will take a few releases in order to clean bugs and have perfectly balanced goals.

3 - Goal-based contests
Like it was done in Rhye's of Civ for Civ3 (see http://rhye.civfanatics.net/pages/civ3-RoCGBC.php). Some challenges in which you need to fulfill many conditions in order to maximise your score.

4 - Alternative history variants
Mini-modcomps that provide different settings (for instance, Greece and Rome that spawn in America, or the presence of Atlantis, or a different shape of some continents). Could be coupled with challenges of #3.

5 - 1700 AD start
May be 1700, or 1750 or any other date that fits best, around that time. A work that just adds a shortcut to the modern era.

6 - Rhye's and Fall of the Greek World
I see that you are developing RFC Antiquity; that would have been my intention too, except that I would have used a map similar to Greek World's one. I don't want to kill your project, but in case I can take the lead and develop it with your help.

7 - Other (please specify)
Anything else you think it's a good idea


This poll will stay open for long, so that every of you occasional visitors may vote too. After all, it's about a future development. So, this post has to stay up for a couple of months.
 

Lone Wolf

Deity
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
9,908
Goal-based contests and UHV pack would be enough for me.
 

pfried

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
4
I'd like to order the #1, #2, and #4, por favor.

I'm also wondering if it would be a worthwhile endeavor to throw in an events system a la Europa Universalis into RFC.
 

General Toad

Chieftain
Joined
May 2, 2009
Messages
38
Wow! It's the Rhye! It's an honor finally to encounter you!

Anyways, I would love to see a 1700's start, though that makes some UHVs impossible. Perhaps you could combine the features of new UHVs and that start, like each Civ. gets a new set of UHVs every two ears (Ancient+Classical, Medival+Ren., Indust.+Modern). Overall expansion as described in Number One would be awesome as well.
 

Bob III

Lazy Roamer
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Messages
192
Location
USA
I also like the idea of a 1700AD start. *revives from dead*
 
Joined
Sep 21, 2007
Messages
4,878
Definitely need a new map, so the Greek idea is good.
 

Positronic

Chieftain
Joined
Nov 27, 2008
Messages
55
I really like the prospect of you leading a Rhye's and Fall of the Greek World idea...
 

civ_king

Deus Caritas Est
Joined
Mar 9, 2006
Messages
16,368
more resources, and a bigger map please (more in proportion to real world), and can you fix America? sometimes it collapses by owning its own territory,
 

Deego3

Prince
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Messages
326
Location
Ireland
Suggestion: Can you change the way civs collapse so that, instead of collapsing all at once, one city every turn declares it's independence. Either the last city founded or the furthest away from the capital.
 

kretes

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
30
As much as I love this mod, I think it's pretty much complete and there's not much to add aside from some tweaks. The only thing that I really miss is the absence of a playable Korea, but it's no biggie. I vote for the Greek variant of the mod for a change of pace.
 

BurnEmDown

Emperor
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
1,718
Either 1700 start or more UHVs. With more emphasize around Modern Age UHVs especially for european countries. Maybe have 3 different UHV categories divided by years. So you could win as Britain fairly early (even by 1750) with a UHV that's more towards colonial power, or if you don't make it to that victory you then get a new UHV (chosen at random out of 2 or 3), if you don't win it by say 1900 then you get a new UHV (chosen at random out of 2 or 3), which you must win by 2020.
Each UHV should be harder than most UHVs and of course each within it's own time-category should be very different so the player couldn't start working towards the 1900 win right from the start, he'd have to adapt to the UHV chosen to him randomly.
Hope this isn't too hard. I bet if people will like this idea everyone could help come up with UHVs by the time you can start modding.
 

Tigranes

Armenian
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
9,867
In my humble opinion, you should think strategically, Rhye. I suggest to think big. I suggest to think about the future of the Civ games in general. Think about Civ 5. Now think about how your idea's can influence the future Civ.

Let's see a big picture. Civ widely considered as one of the best games of all times. After Firaxis included your mod with 2 others in BTS you sealed your name in history. I don't want to sound critical, but the very fact Firaxis included fun created material as a commercially distributed package suggests that they are running out of steam. Colonization remake is another indication of that. Both Brian Reynolds and Soren Johnson left Civ. I really would like to know what Firaxis will research next...

What is the future for Civ? Are there any talks about Civ 5? Are they going to rebuild the whole engine, create a new AI? I feel really strange that it takes 20 people to draw cool art and just ONE person to program AI. People have created a chess program that can beat a world champion, but XXI century Civ AI still uses cheats and artificial handicaps on humans to be a competitive match to them.

While AI is the hardest and the most important thing to improve and should be left for Firaxis, AI itself depends on concepts one will introduce in Civ 5. So I suggest you to further concepts of RFC, gradually introduce new once, and promote your concepts (not just the mod) so that Firaxis would make it an integral part of Civ 5.

I give the due respect to all the cool mods which are around. But FfH, for example is not leading towards Civ 5. From the very beginning Civ was about history, not fantasy. What RFC brought to Civ is a sense of UNIQUENESS. If you put UU and UB and the mood of the leaders aside, BTS is still about Civilization. RFC is about CivilizationS. Every new feature you have introduced reinforcing the concept of German Civilization, Incan Civilization, Khmer Civilization -- so it's about CivilizationS, not just a Civilization. Even Stability is unique for each Civ (settler maps and war maps).

So I suggest to dedicate all your little time towards the strategic development. Polish old ideas. Introduce new once based on RFC philosophy:
*Unique religions with unique positive and negative effect is the most obvious example. So far no one was able to do it without attaching uniqueness to the temples.
*Another idea is royal brides, similar to mercenaries one must be able to marry and use his daughters to arrange political marriges. Each bride could have two effect, one for "in-law" civ, and the other one for her native kingdom.
*Yet another idea is that every new successive leader (or dynasty) (like Cyrus-Darius) has some unique influence on his/her civ.

List can go on and on, but the most important concept that Civ lacks so far is the absence of internal strive. In the real life, all the leaders play two Civ games in two different worlds. The one outside and the other one inside of their own countries. I mean a leader must deal not only with foreign civs but with the domestic civs as well. Domestic civs such as rebellious brothers, foreign wife (queen), party of nobles, party of the church, party of merchants, party of cities, party of poor villagers, in modern times it can be trade unions, rival domestic political leaders, organized crime. All this domestic "OTHERS" can be incorporated in one new "civilization" with special rules of interaction. It's like one need to play on two maps (tabs): one is the world map, and the other one is the tab (map) with your capital (or with your kingdom). Already promoted concept of stability, once modified, can be the very bridge between those two different worlds. I know this is a very vague idea. However, when one thinks how Civ 5 can be different from Civ 4 on the conceptual level (if we put better AI aside), then the domestic interactions is the key aspect which is missing.

I am sorry for this post being so long :). My bottom line is: I think it's the best to think about Civ 5, to polish old RFC, introduce new concepts organically linked to the old ones and advocate the cause with Firaxis :). So that they program an AI with the Stability in mind (for example).

And I think that RFC, as it is, can already influence the future Civ :goodjob:
So let's deepen that impression.
 

ThurinEthir

Warlord
Joined
Dec 28, 2008
Messages
126
As long as it works with Warlords, I'll be happy. :)
I voted for new UHVs. #1 would be cool too.
 

thadian

Kami of Awakened Dreamers
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
2,288
Location
Indiana, USA
i chose "Further RFC Development". partially because i half-agree with Pacifist that RFC may be "dead" in terms of "evolution". but moreso because i believe that it is still not perfected.

things that cause me displeasure:

Removal of Squatting. - I will NEVER use a cheat mode, i don't care to learn how to activate it. i enjoyed squatting because of the different games that it allowed. without it, every game falls into the same bounds.

Solution: ALLOW SQUATTING! I went from playing RFC 8 times a week to playing 8 times total since it's removal. there should be leniency on capitals flipping.

60% or more of earth useless. - Most of the time, small "segments" are colonized but most of the earth... you may as well remove Australia, Canada and most of the pacific islands. they cause such bad stability penalties that only certain countries can colonize them. and if europe collapses none of it will ever be colonized. sometimes europe collapses because one country gets a penalty for a colony city which makes all the other countries around it get a penalty leading to a domino effect.

Solution: - LESS, and i mean MUCH less penalty for expansion for everyone. Egypt should be able to claim a good portion of africa guilt-free. Ethiopia should be able to colonize most of east/south africa. i don't know how many beautiful spots are right there and unusable because of this penalty. Every empire should have a chance to defy history and go a little farther beyond their means. I have had greek korea - roman iceland, roman america and malinese carthage empire. it was really fun until my whole empire collapsed. I feel like i should be able to safely expand.

SOLUTION 2: Each kingdom should have a button on the bottom-right corner of the screen you can click that will highlight your "area" you can expand to safely, and have "TERRIBLE" spots shaded in red. this way a player can know that while placing your city one tile west might give a great resource it will give a penalty. it would also be nice if each square listed the penalty it gives. for example, -5/-10 or whatever. this way a player can decide if its worth it.

Solution 3: When a country like carthage/babylon/egypt collapses it should NOT be reborn, and its historical area removed. this way others can expand there without paranoia.

America. - America will either find itself an uncontested america with 2-3 flip-cities and will very soon expand the entire continent. OR - it finds the great plains settled by france, and french aztec vassals. unlike spain and england, france has no life and will overcommit everything to destroy america and the USA will be a useless entity. Also, Alaska is worthless in RFC. (like many other places).

Solution: - Aztecs should prioritize its northern defense so it doesn't get massacred by barbs. i once used WB to give aztec modern armor as soon as it spawned and it placed ALL of its armies in cities that dont need defense and collapses from losing the same cities over and over. then europe finds it and it immediatly vassalizes. This way it is "SLIGHTLY" stronger and might be able to fend off invaders for a short while.

New World. Maya will never again build its cultural wonders because while maya is settling its second city - its wonders are all built! inca and maya are really really bad and aren't really playable. Maya gets like 3 cities and Inca gets 6 or so. Brazil should not give such bad settlement penalties. imagine the mayans colonizing brazil. i used to do it when i was allowed to squat. even then, penalties would kill me, but it was much more fun than having 3 unplayable cities that get squashed by the first AI to see it. you can't even conquer the aztec or vise versa because immenent collapse from stability.






All in all, it seems like stability is the real thing that causes me such displeasure. im afraid to try anything, or build that other city, or capture that city because i don't want to collapse out of nowhere when i was just fine before. there are millions of "negatives" that pile up over time, and no positives. the positives are short term and not incremental so there is very little outside of staying in your area and using specific civic combo's (that your forced to use for this reason) to survive at all.

Most of the countries like Mali, Ethiopia, New World, and Khmer are designed to hit their UHV then collapse almost immediately leaving their core area penalty zones to make sure it stays indy or punishes a conqueror. i wish they had more dimensions of play and expansion so they could survive better. Mali could start by getting a food bonus on desert tiles and permission to expand south of africa's west cape.


I love RFC but i almost never think about it anymore because when i do, the headache of having to re-master stability manipulation comes to mind and the migrane of over micromanagement follows. I've almost tried to reprogram stability to give a bonus EVERY TURN to help negate some of the worst penalties (which never cap, while benefits do). but alas, all tries ended in complete reinstall. i remember a few people who said they "fixed" stability on their version and i would rather play their versions than the official one for that reason.


Besides those things, RFC is awesome! The game is playable by newbies who usually get lost until they find the wiki at which they either decide to try to master stability or a certain country - or just quit because its a migrane to do either. vets i see quitting rfc after a certain point, because of all the bounds and limits you can't cross. isn't crossing those limits half the fun? maybe the AI should be allowed to squat as well, and be permitted to consider it. i also refer to my solution of an in-game button for stability tiles because i just can't navigate the uber-confusing maps very well. in fact, when i saw them i became more sad to see how bad the limits really were and how much of earth is ONLY usable to ONE country who might never have a chance to colonize it.

Edit: If someone can post a retro version that allows squatting AND has the numbers on the stability screen - OR a modmod with a stability fix i will very likely play again. until that happens, i just don't have the interest anymore, and haven't for some time. i am sure RFC will do just fine without me, and has done so for the last year or so. however because i am hopeful i will still check the forum once a week or so. Good luck to you all, and i welcome all criticisms -
for RHYE'S benefit.

Its unlikely i will reply to anything about my posts besides elaborate on something, but leave out all unhelpful comments like im a newb because i can't handle many headaches or im a newb because of squatting. we feel the way we do on these things, probably won't change our mind - and posting it will not help the quality of RFC. i want a better RFC, not a flamefest because of my newbiness.
 

Positronic

Chieftain
Joined
Nov 27, 2008
Messages
55
SOLUTION 2: Each kingdom should have a button on the bottom-right corner of the screen you can click that will highlight your "area" you can expand to safely, and have "TERRIBLE" spots shaded in red. this way a player can know that while placing your city one tile west might give a great resource it will give a penalty. it would also be nice if each square listed the penalty it gives. for example, -5/-10 or whatever. this way a player can decide if its worth it.

This idea, more than any other, really caught my interest. Somehow integrating the stability maps into the game would make it *much* easier to manage large empires and to know where to expand to. Even if you opt to do one of the other poll choices, I think this might be a good and short side project.
 

thadian

Kami of Awakened Dreamers
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
2,288
Location
Indiana, USA
sorry to flame 2 posts in a row, but the 1700 AD start would be nice. consider the imbalance of the current future 600 AD start though. in this case, america has worse starts than the older start date.


Also, i was playing some FFH a while back and i thought about "Landmarks". maybe some things like the gaza pyramids, stonehenge and a few other things can be "Landmarks" instead of wonders.

just a thought. maybe one per continent?



Posi - I have always wished for in-game stability maps. the "numbers" on the stability screen really changed how i play and such "zone displays" would really help a lot.
 

General Toad

Chieftain
Joined
May 2, 2009
Messages
38
Thandian's post reminded me of one thing that I would like to see, if possible- After looking at stability charts, I came up with an idea. RFC is all about history and taking it into your own hands, to either change it or relive it. So, when you can't expand to certain places as certain Civs., it's... agrivating. There should be a new stability region to show "Theoretical Historical Possessions." What if Alexander had lived longer and was able to invade the bulk of India, maybe expanding up to the edge of China? What if the Khans had made it into Italy (as discussed in a great book, What IF?) What if Napoleon hadn't lost the bulk of his army in Moskow? Some areas should also be on everyone's map as stable regions- Mexico and the Incan lands are only on Spain's map as stable, as they got their first in real life. As we see often in RFC, that is not always the case.
 

Arkaeyn

King
Joined
Jan 12, 2005
Messages
936
Location
nomad, USA
I voted for the Greek World/Antiquity choice, but I'm most interested in getting RAND working optimally, so that's my real vote.

I do like what Tigranes had to say about moving towards the future, though I'm not sure if I'd think about it in exactly the way that he did. Do we know that Firaxis wants to be influenced, or is able to be influenced? I don't think the new Colonization is proof that they're out of ideas, but it may be that the suits in charge don't really care for new ideas.

Are there any new turn-based strategy games coming out these days, by the way? Whenever I see that question asked, nobody seems to have an answer other than Civ IV, which is hardly new.


EDIT/ASIDE

Dynamic stability maps would be a really, really cool feature, though might be a massive mess of coding.
 

General Toad

Chieftain
Joined
May 2, 2009
Messages
38
Third post as I have a bad memory-

Judaism. I like it in the game, and enjoy seeing a Judaic Russia and Germany at times, but something should be done about it's spread in the 3000 BC starts, or simply make it so the ancient Civs just don't want to convert to it, as historically, they had their Polytheism. This could also be fixed by encorperating Ancient Polytheism as a religion, as you seem to have mentioned, but that may require more work, as somehow you would need to slowly have it die out.
 
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