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What should government spending be limited to?

Tani Coyote

Son of Huehuecoyotl
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May 28, 2007
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Topic Question: What should government spending be limited to?

The question for this thread, inspired by a conversation over taxes with a close friend, is "What should government spending be limited to?" What kinds of services should be fueled by the hard-earned money that's taxed away from you and/or others?

My personal response:

Spoiler :
It's a tough question. While the Constitution is a neat guide and all, it has to be changed as times change. Primarily, I feel government spending and power should be limited to:




A. Military - ...Last I checked, the military being privately-owned is a sign of a failed state and/or undeveloped nation. Let's keep warlords out of the equation shall we? A place this can get shaky or undefined is in relation to states/provinces. A powerful militia should be employed by local governments, so as to balance out federal power. I know some say the government oppressing the people is libertarian paranoia, but is America exempt to democracy lapsing into dictatorship, as has happened to so many other free countries?




B. Policing - Once more, policing should be the authority of governments, though private security should be allowed as well. The publicly-funded police are of course necessary to guarantee that all rights and priveleges of the common people are preserved. The policing sector naturally includes prison systems to house criminals; this cost can be shared with businesses who will be able to exploit the free labor of the prisoners in the system.




C. Printing/Coining of currency - I personally believe it would be insane for counterfeiting to be a made a legal practice... you think overprinting is bad NOW?




D. Foreign Aid - Aid should primarily serve strategic and national goals. This includes buying property abroad, for citizens to build businesses upon, thus employing the locals while also adding revenue to the homeland's income pool. The government should also be able to purchase lands abroad, through a consensual transaction by all parties involved, and these lands may be annexed by the homeland. Illegal immigration could be a problem here. :lol: The government should also be willing to spend money here as an extension of the military budget; i.e. giving weapons to friendly regimes and democratic movements. Foreign aid should also be used to help build foreign markets for goods.




E. Infrastructure - Infrastructure such as roads, railways and bridges need to be maintained with public funds unless it is profitable in certain cases or if a charitable group decides to pay to maintain it. Infrastructure extends to public buildings in this example as well.




F. Economic Stimulus - Stimulus spending by the government should be primarily in sectors that expand and facilitate commerce, industry and above all, employment. Loans/grants should be given to small businesses so as to help them grow against the powerful forces of corporate competition. Alternative energy sources should be funded so as to reduce their costs and to help wean the country off dependence on foreign energy. In addition, investment in infrastructure should be undertaken, so as to make the country more efficient and modern. Most of the stimulus should be funded by the "Free Market Tax" imposed on big business people and large inheritances; the tax serves to help the government preserve/restore/enhance the free market that allowed the rich to become rich in the first place.

On a side note, economic stimulus can probably take the form of non-spending measures, such as tax cuts in exchange for employing x number of people relative to a business' current income level.




G. Welfare/Social Safety Net - The big one, which causes the Left and Right to tear various important body parts off of eachother in a bloodthirsty, pro/anti-government rage. The key welfare service of the police has already been detailed separately due to it's importance and separation from "general" welfare. What kind of welfare is pursued varies on the taxation system.

With something such as the Negative Income tax, the welfare system is already taken care of for all intents and purposes.

Using the current system, welfare should primarily take the form of being given at the local level. The states usually run surpluses, and they can better care for their inhabitants. Due to a less-omnipotent size, they could also have less waste as a result of it being harder for money(dealing with billions instead of trillions) to get "lost."

Welfare can be partially implemented in forms of taxation; the VAT, for instance, should not be applied to needed medicine such as vitamins, healthy(simple) food, simple clothing, or decent housing. With the less fortunate's necessities mostly untaxed, there is the issue of how it's paid for. If taxation is low, the poor need not rely as much on state aid in order to purchase what they need.

Social Security will likely have to be phased out - or at least, the retirement part - due to it being hinged on population numbers. That, or the qualifying age greatly increased/benefits reduced. This is primarily for the retirement aspect, though, and this can be reformed through forced investment in retirement accounts.

There should be a basic healthcare subsidy, which should be amplified depending on the importance of the person's job(sections such as management, mining/farming, manufacturing, service sector, etc.) to the economy; emergency care should be free. With the big healthcare issue taken care of, and the private sector mostly intact(if regulated to prevent excessive prices), other needs may be tended to. Public housing should primarily take the form of large apartments so as to cut down on consumed space, though not with the horrid conditions of say, the late 1800s. Children should be guaranteed mostly-free healthcare until they are of working age in their respective area.

To prevent overpopulation and help a child's well-being, there should be limits to the amount of children people can have relative to their economic conditions. Orphanages should receive increased government spending so as to help pay for education programs and job training. The school system should be privatised in some ways, so as to allow private sector efficiency to be involved(the government will pay the fee for the private employees). Any privatised course will have to meet curriculum requirements though, naturally. Fire departments should be like the police: publicly-funded, though there will be private alternatives.



I think I about summed it up, at least my personal view. I probably left something out, but I tried... it took forever to type. x__x

Given how many of those on the forums lean to the left(I'm watching you after last time, Jessiecat :p ) your views will of course be different, but to each his own! I look forward to all of your views on what government spending should be limited to. :D

...On a side note, remember that the term "government" here refers to national AND regional/local governments. Choose whichever you want to tackle, or try them all! :goodjob:
 
1. Pay for the military
2. pay to secure the borders
3. pave the roads
4. let the states handle everything else
 
1. Pay for the military
2. pay to secure the borders
3. pave the roads
4. let the states handle everything else

Cool, so each individual state shall become socialist and own the means of production.

"Government" doesn't mean "feds"
 
C. Printing of currency - I personally believe it would be insane for counterfeiting to be a made a legal practice... you think overprinting is bad NOW?

This is part of government spending?

Social Security will likely have to be phased out - or at least, the retirement part - due to it being hinged on population numbers. That, or the qualifying age greatly increased/benefits reduced. This is primarily for the retirement aspect, though, and this can be reformed through forced investment in retirement accounts.

Or just stop using a pay-as-you-go system.
 
Cool, so each individual state shall become socialist and own the means of production.

"Government" doesn't mean "feds"
1. don't be deliberately stupid, you know very well what I meant
2. Looking at the topic starter's list I thought it had to be the federal government, how many states do you see involved a "bailout"?
 
1. Pay for the military
2. pay to secure the borders
3. pave the roads
4. let the states handle everything else

You stay true to the southern spirit of limited federal/national power! And I respect that. Though I assume the limited scope also is an ideal of local government, as you mentioned in your response to Bill3000. It couldn't hurt to have less government bureaucracy... usually, anyway.



Cool, so each individual state shall become socialist and own the means of production.

"Government" doesn't mean "feds"

Epic way of interpreting it literally, Bill! :lol: ...That's a scary argument about how focusing on JUST the Feds means socialism at the state level is 100% okay. I'll use that as a rebuff to "state's rights" people if I feel the need. ;)

While I know DeathMachine also likely meant that local government should be limited... for other posters, I did make sure to put that small closing statement that "government" here meant both the national government and it's subdivisions. Just to get people to think about what's more sacred: limited government overall, or limited government at the top? Thinking is good... I think.



This is part of government spending?

Or just stop using a pay-as-you-go system.

Well that's a leftover of the opening post from when I also questioned the POWERS of the Federal government, but I removed that and focused on spending so local and state governments could be included too. On currency itself, the government does spend money on it if I recall correctly. Take for instance, how coining a penny costs more than 1 cent. So, even if it's minor, it would count as a part of government spending. It's more or less a small piece of fat leftover from the original topic, however.

I suppose that works as well... that might warrant a topic of it's own.

Aelf, while you commented on my own personal opinions of the topic, you haven't detailed your own positions on what government spending should be limited to. Do you intend to share at some point in the future? :)
 
1. don't be deliberately stupid, you know very well what I meant
2. Looking at the topic starter's list I thought it had to be the federal government, how many states do you see involved a "bailout"?

Didn't get around to replying to number 2 here... guess I'll do it separately.

You make a good point that the majority of my opening post seems biased towards the Federal government. This is understandable though, given the size and scope of Federal power and expenses. So while the Federal government is de facto the center of discussion, I made sure to leave the door open for local/state spending to be discussed.

Unfortunately, the majority of my post did not really address local spending ( :blush: ) aside from the fact that some things were better off being managed by the local government(i.e. the welfare system)... I'll remember for next time. Thank you.

Good point regarding the bailouts... Alas, I near-completely forgot the states and middlemen (as evidenced by the "Economic Stimulus" part, which is pretty much a federal domain) who build the foundations of the national government... most of my comments regarding the non-federal structures were about privately-owned institutions, rather than locally-funded..
 
On currency itself, the government does spend money on it if I recall correctly. Take for instance, how coining a penny costs more than 1 cent. So, even if it's minor, it would count as a part of government spending. It's more or less a small piece of fat leftover from the original topic, however.

Apart from replacing very old currency, I'm not sure how much new currency the government actually issues. Probably very little.

Taniciusfox said:
Aelf, while you commented on my own personal opinions of the topic, you haven't detailed your own positions on what government spending should be limited to. Do you intend to share at some point in the future? :)

Besides the obvious, I'd say subsidized healthcare and education with the goal of leaving no one without adequate levels, unemployment benefits tied to period of unemployment and going for (free or subsidized) job retraining, a fully funded social security system with safety net for low-income workers, subsidies for businesses that adopt community or environmentally-friendly approaches if necessary...

There might be more, but I can't think of anything else right now.
 
1. don't be deliberately stupid, you know very well what I meant
2. Looking at the topic starter's list I thought it had to be the federal government, how many states do you see involved a "bailout"?

Normally, when someone refers to the concept of a "government", they are talking about an abstract entity, and thus not limited to a particular scheme of divisions and the powers thereof, and certainly not merely "the country that is the United States".
 
It should only be limited by the amount of taxes people are willing to pay. Whatever people want if there are funds available. We're not all bound by curious American notions that government spending is intrinsically "socialist" or somehow against "freedom", fortunately.
 
It should only be limited by the amount of taxes people are willing to pay. Whatever people want if there are funds available. We're not all bound by curious American notions that government spending is intrinsically "socialist" or somehow against "freedom", fortunately.

1. We are paying for more than the funds available. (in America)
2. Europe is pretty much socialist, so excuse some of us for not wanting to be more like you. :p
 
B. Policing -The policing sector naturally includes prison systems to house criminals; this cost can be shared with businesses who will be able to exploit the free labor of the prisoners in the system.
D. Foreign Aid - The government should also be able to purchase lands abroad, through a consensual transaction by all parties involved, and these lands may be annexed by the homeland.

B. Let me get this straight, private businesses that "invest" in the prison industry can receive a share of inmates as unfree labour?
D. I don't think we do this any more, we are not in the 19th century when colonies and concessions can be "bought".
 
D. I don't think we do this any more, we are not in the 19th century when colonies and concessions can be "bought".
Are you for real? We spend BILLIONS on foreign aid.
 
As long as you use government created rationalizations to justify their action(which is what you are doing, and in the process employing tons of fallacies), there is no limit to government expansion.

I'm advocating against government expansion for the most part. I hate taxes(from what I saw in your posts, it appears you do too), I hate excessive spending... where do you see support for government expansion(in this case, expansion meaning control and influence over the economy)? What are the fallacies I employ to justify government expansion?

Or were you replying to someone else? If so, disregard my post. :)



It should only be limited by the amount of taxes people are willing to pay. Whatever people want if there are funds available. We're not all bound by curious American notions that government spending is intrinsically "socialist" or somehow against "freedom", fortunately.

That sounds fair enough, democracy after all. Given that the People can very easily get caught up in populist fury, however, there has to be some sort of restriction on rapid developments.

Think of how - if I recall right - the Dutch have new laws passed not just by their current legislature, but the one that follows it. Similar measures could be used in any country, and it may be time-consuming, but it helps prevent any sudden - and possibly disastrous - decisions. I believe the US Senate functions in a similar way, since it only offers 1/3 of it's seats up for election at a time(and thus helps prevent MASSIVE changes in the Senate's political composition). We just don't have that rule that forces two votes on it by different Congresses/legislatures.

The idea is that while democratic and populist decisions generally are good, they must be taken cautiously, lest the people make a move they regret. This is especially so if the electorate tends to act on party loyalty or is just ignorant, and doesn't really think about what they do or who they vote for.

If I wanted to, I could Godwin the thread as a reference to why populist decisions aren't ALWAYS the best thing.

All that said, I feel that's a very good idea about how welfare should be administered. Now how to make sure that the decision doesn't form a dictatorship of the majority? Or furthermore, what keeps these new taxes/expenditures from being passed by a single group or legislative session against the will of the common people? For the second problem, I once again bring up the whole Dutch idea about major policy changes.



1. We are paying for more than the funds available. (in America)
2. Europe is pretty much socialist, so excuse some of us for not wanting to be more like you. :p

Your first point is an excellent rebuff on how the USA finances things with others' money rather than our own; the welfare state is doomed to disaster unless it somehow becomes hinged solely on domestic taxation... That won't go over well since Americans(and most people usually) don't really like taxation. But, god forbid the government trim the fat off it's expenses rather than just levying more taxation...

On point 2: :lol: Unfortunately for everyone on the left, I agree with Death_Machine here in trying to remain privatised in our economic affairs... Pardon me while I build up my fortress for the incoming assault...

Spoiler :
I THOUGHT THE LEFTIES WERE ANTI-WAR?! :( :lol:
 
The governement should pay for anything the people want to be public.
 
Whoops! Missed this one...


B. Let me get this straight, private businesses that "invest" in the prison industry can receive a share of inmates as unfree labour?
D. I don't think we do this any more, we are not in the 19th century when colonies and concessions can be "bought".

Well, it's primarily an alternative to the death penalty. So, murderers and those who could be executed would instead be commuted to life imprisonment with a hard labor regime as their punishment. The idea is MAKE them WISH they got off with a nice and easy - not to mention increasingly painless - taxpayer-paid execution.

The capital punishment segment is the key focus, as it becomes profitable to house the prisoners and it makes the pro-life left happy. Focusing primarily on the capital punishment segment, I feel, also reduces the amount of economic distortion that could result from a massive influx of unpaid labor.

It could be extended to the prisoners at large should the economy need a quick source of labor, and I imagine businesses would set up factories near the prison to give these people jobs. This helps them develop a post-prison life by giving them some work skills, while it also serves as an adequate punishment for those formerly susceptible to capital punishment. The exact details of how businesses acquire their unpaid labor can be worked out elsewhere...


On buying foreign lands... why can't we do it anymore? It's being PURCHASED, what's wrong if it's a consensual agreement? It's usually cheaper and less morally-questionable than just say, I dunno... INVADING and STEALING it? If the government, the foreign government, and the people on the land being purchased all decide to seal the deal, I don't see any issue. It's business as usual; it's just being done by the national government. It also enables our laws to be extended to the laborers there... would you rather businesses set up in the area instead and exploit the labor, rather than our minimum wage laws and regulations applying as well?

The governement should pay for anything the people want to be public.

Sounds fairly reasonable, tonberry. See my response to Jessiecat above on why I don't think that's always a good idea...
 
Government spending needs to be fiscally responsible. But what is fiscally responsible really depends on the situation of a given government entity. For instance, higher spending (as a proportion of government revenue, i.e. a bigger proportional deficit) is more achievable in Australia than in, say, Japan. Public debt needs to be kept under control, but then again, this needs to be balanced with the need for fiscal stimulus. But, if I had to pick an arbitrary rule to go by for limiting government spending as a proportion of government revenue, I'd say, maybe, 130%. Meaning, for the US federal government, about $3.25 trillion, and for Australia, about A$375 billion.
 
Well, it's primarily an alternative to the death penalty. So, murderers and those who could be executed would instead be commuted to life imprisonment with a hard labor regime as their punishment. The idea is MAKE them WISH they got off with a nice and easy - not to mention increasingly painless - taxpayer-paid execution.
The capital punishment segment is the key focus, as it becomes profitable to house the prisoners and it makes the pro-life left happy. Focusing primarily on the capital punishment segment, I feel, also reduces the amount of economic distortion that could result from a massive influx of unpaid labor.

It could be extended to the prisoners at large should the economy need a quick source of labor, and I imagine businesses would set up factories near the prison to give these people jobs. This helps them develop a post-prison life by giving them some work skills, while it also serves as an adequate punishment for those formerly susceptible to capital punishment. The exact details of how businesses acquire their unpaid labor can be worked out elsewhere...

While it's true that it would be effective deterrent, a lifetime of forced labour sounds no difference than slavery to me. Besides, why should the prison system be profitable? The government doesn't run it to generate profit, the purpose of a prison system is to punish and rehabilitate criminals.

On buying foreign lands... why can't we do it anymore? It's being PURCHASED, what's wrong if it's a consensual agreement? It's usually cheaper and less morally-questionable than just say, I dunno... INVADING and STEALING it? If the government, the foreign government, and the people on the land being purchased all decide to seal the deal, I don't see any issue. It's business as usual; it's just being done by the national government. It also enables our laws to be extended to the laborers there... would you rather businesses set up in the area instead and exploit the labor, rather than our minimum wage laws and regulations applying as well?

It's all very well and good in principle, there are problems in its execution. Look at most of the examples in Africa and Asia during the last few centuries, you'll find that the sellers consent quickly when there's a fleet of carriersgunboats anchored nearby.
Sure it's may not be this blatant these days, but realistically the only potential buyers in such transactions will be pretty much the same bunch earlier.
Seriously, maybe I am being incredibly dense, but I simply can't see the difference between these purchases and the colonial acquisition earlier.

Edit: Also labour law is kind of a white men's burden thing.
 
Government spending needs to be fiscally responsible. But what is fiscally responsible really depends on the situation of a given government entity. For instance, higher spending (as a proportion of government revenue, i.e. a bigger proportional deficit) is more achievable in Australia than in, say, Japan. Public debt needs to be kept under control, but then again, this needs to be balanced with the need for fiscal stimulus. But, if I had to pick an arbitrary rule to go by for limiting government spending as a proportion of government revenue, I'd say, maybe, 130%. Meaning, for the US federal government, about $3.25 trillion, and for Australia, about A$375 billion.

The fact you said the first sentence automatically earns you a medal!

It is a good point that the government does every so often need to step in to mitigate the damages of an ailing economy(although I don't support proping up big business against failure; either support a welfare state for the large amount of unemployed during the recession's duration, or offer life support to small businesses instead, since they are too IMPORTANT to fail, at least in the USA.). But it is also a good point that this stimulus must be responsible and not insane(i.e it should only pay for jobs that are valuable, profitable or sustainable, such as funding small business grants). Of course, all the fiscal stimulus could apply even to non-recession times, so as to try and help growth(such as funding alternative energy).

Above all, a balanced budget is a great need for a first world country - especially one with as much clout as the USA - if it intends to maintain stability and sustain it's quality of life. The American Empire is doomed to collapse due to our massive deficits and our reliance on foreign money to support our dream society, not to mention our willingness to go on hundred billion dollar adventures every so often. I just hope we wean ourself off all these benefits in time for when China and others finally deny our request for a loan...

On another note, the topic also asks what kinds of services should be provided by governments. Do you have anything to say on that? :)


While it's true that it would be effective deterrent, a lifetime of forced labour sounds no difference than slavery to me. Besides, why should the prison system be profitable? The government doesn't run it to generate profit, the purpose of a prison system is to punish and rehabilitate criminals.

Well, slavery and involuntary servitude were banned in all respects by Thirteenth Amendment... EXCEPT if it was punishment for a crime. Furthermore, the forced laborers are not property of the state(they are still guaranteed their basic human rights as such), and their descendents will not be forced into labor unless they themselves commit the same crimes... so it isn't really "slavery" in the sense that the term commonly evokes.

Sure, they can be punished and rehabilitated through forced labor. While we're at it, why not make some money? :p Makes less of a hole in taxpayer pockets. They could also be used to finance expensive projects or reduce their costs; picture prisoner labor being used to erect massive solar/wind power plant facilities, cutting the construction costs down drastically.

As well, you can't really rehabilitate a murderer, since they (usually) will get a life sentence and will never be released. The punishment aspect is still pretty well enforced through labor until the day they die, though.

On the normal prisoners, I said they would probably be exempt from this labor, as they didn't warrant the death penalty(what the forced labor is meant to replace) under the previous system. However, if there is a shortage of labor, they will of course be put on the market.

Offering prisoner labor, I feel, would primarily have the drawback of how it can snatch labor out of the hands of American citizens even better than an illegal immigrant working for less than minimum wage. Thus, the supply of prisoners for labor would have to be regulated to ensure the economic effects aren't catastrophic.

It's all very well and good in principle, there are problems in its execution. Look at most of the examples in Africa and Asia during the last few centuries, you'll find that the sellers consent quickly when there's a fleet of carriersgunboats anchored nearby.

Sure it's may not be this blatant these days, but realistically the only potential buyers in such transactions will be pretty much the same bunch earlier.
Seriously, maybe I am being incredibly dense, but I simply can't see the difference between these purchases and the colonial acquisition earlier.

Coercion isn't desirable, but it's just a natural aspect between a strong country and a weak country. While we may not be able to get rid of it, we can at least try to mitigate the damages of it through fair purchases of foreign territory. However, national expansion should primarily be done to acquire some sort of resource; very often, the territory you already have will have problems of it's own to take care of, and America is no exception.

But the countries of the First World have greatly liberalised - in both the classical and American definition of the world - in terms of policy. Should the European Union's members acquire parts of the Third World, chances are they'd be treated fairly well, given the rather-humane character of the EU. Social Darwinism has thankfully died out.

The difference is is that force isn't the primary medium of international gains anymore. I think the best example of this is how China's expanded overseas so well in the last few decades without a single shot fired. They gained money, they gained resources, they gained FRIENDS.

In the long-term, it's generally more profitable to do things in cash rather than bullets, and I think the majority of the world, pacifist or non, understands that concept. And that is what would make the new era's expansion generally different from the last era's... the USA, I imagine, is an exception simply by merit of it's huge military resources, and thus it seems easy to send a horde of hardware at whoever we please, when we could just try more diplomatic and economic approaches(I will say, however, that not everybody can be negotiated with).

People are more vocally anti-war than ever, and far more progressive nowadays, even in the USA, which is commonly the conservative underdog of the First World. We should give fair and consensual purchases/expansions a second try, and if it's done peacefully and consensually... chances are it will last far more than the last colonial venture. In fact, if the natives aren't being oppressed/exploited... is it colonial at all anymore?
 
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