What strategy for Portugal OCC

[tedhebert]

Hi all,

the idea raised in the Portugal video thread on how they'd be a great target for a OCC has sunk its claws in my head ;-)

I've never really seriously tried a OCC. Would like some tips from you all on how YOU'D go about it:

- What map type and size should be used ?
- What victory condition would you gun for with Portugal ?
- What would be your primary early goals/targets ?
- What would be your long time goals/targets ?
- What do you think is the highest game level a OCC victory can be achieved without exploits ?

For myself, my first musings on this is going archipelago, Huge map (to get 11 other civs), reroll if necessary to get a minimum quality start. Like at least a location where there's a possibility of building a harbor and Colossus, Great Lighthouse, Venetian Arsenal and Mausoleum. Not saying getting all 4 would be doable, but at least have the possibility for it.

I'm figuring I'd want to go OWL then go crazy on CS trade routes. So rapidly do the strict minimum to defend from AI if needed, then put all energy on Galleys... Wonder if we'll be able to upgrade from Galley to NAU ? or if they'll have to be hard built ? I guess the latter...

I'm thinking Kilwa, Great Zim, Oracle, Oxford and Ruhr would also be interesting targets for wonders. And of course all the extra policy wonders. The others I find unsuitable for OCC.

What I'm having trouble figuring out is what VC to go for. The only one I can think of is Diplomacy, using all the CSes you can suze with owls.

I don't think SV is a possible target, even with the science bonuses of Portugal ? Especially with the way the AI is now going all out on science.

And I also don't think it's desirable to get a religion ? Seems like a lot of effort to get one with only one HS, and after that not getting much faith economy ? A pantheon for sure, that's all I guess.

Is Culture a possible goal ? If so, how ?

I'm a little stumped here. I could use your global experience on having fun with OCC.

Thanks

 

[hhhhhh]

Oh that's a great idea -- One major pain for OCC is limited number of trade route but Portugal doesn't have that problem.

You may need to find a good start (at least you want to settle seaside but not too many coast tiles), and make sure you can build Kilwa Kisiwani.

Great Zimbabwe may or may not be necessary. Don't count that into your strategy (for OCC district slot is very tight if you build a harbor I suggest you don't build a CH at all).

Science, Culture and Diplomatic are all viable. At least it won't be hard.

When you make your campus, plan for both Oxford and Great Library. GL is not interesting for regular games but very important for OCC.

For Ruhr Valley... it's up to you but maybe it's not necessary and you may have a hard time finding a location for that.

You asked about goals... for OCC early game is kinda easy. You don't need to build settlers that saves at least 190 production for the capital, and you can use those to make units and buildings. It's the late game that's slow and painful. If you want to win an SV in OCC your science per turn is at most 400 (can be 500 but hard) and takes a long time to finish late game tech. I'd say if played smartly Portugal can win science OCC sub T250.

 

[tedhebert]

Oh that's a great idea -- One major pain for OCC is limited number of trade route but Portugal doesn't have that problem.

You may need to find a good start (at least you want to settle seaside but not too many coast tiles), and make sure you can build Kilwa Kisiwani.

Great Zimbabwe may or may not be necessary. Don't count that into your strategy (for OCC district slot is very tight if you build a harbor I suggest you don't build a CH at all).

Yeah what I was thinking too about the CH. But it DOES give an extra trade route (great zim)...

Science, Culture and Diplomatic are all viable. At least it won't be hard.

hmmm. How do you go about a culture victory without the ability to spam relics/temples and Theatre Squares ?

When you make your campus, plan for both Oxford and Great Library. GL is not interesting for regular games but very important for OCC.

Why GL ? For the boosts ? Won't you already be almost through classical by the time your finish GL ?

For Ruhr Valley... it's up to you but maybe it's not necessary and you may have a hard time finding a location for that.

OK... I'm not saying I want to gun for them all... just that going through the list, those were the ones I could find real value for in an OCC.

Also... Should the strategy of Levying CSs and using their units to actively pillage 1-2-3 enemies be an integral part of the plan ? I'm thinking there'd be enough money to go down that way and raise science, culture and faith this way ?

 

[Francel]

Definitely ancestral hall based on how much higher it finished than audience chamber.

 

[hhhhhh]

Why GL ? For the boosts ? Won't you already be almost through classical by the time your finish GL ?

I'm actually not 100% sure, but I did see good players build GL on deity OCC. It's not just the boosts, but the Great Scientists Points, and extra boosts when other civ recruit a Great Scientists. (OCC SV end game is just slow and painful, you get 400+ science in your single city, and it may take 6-7 turn to do a single future era tech, if you can get any of the boosts it will greatly help.)

Actually @Francel brought up a great topic. Speaking of Gov. Plaza, I think it is at a dilemma for OCC. Gov. Plaza is important, but you do want to build the Oracle and take advantage of the GPP it provides. But Gov. Plaza will take up a district slot without providing any GPP. So I'm thinking, without actually testing, that for OCC, one may need to postpone Gov. Plaza. Maybe build it as the 3rd (7 population) or even 4th (10 population) district.

When you play you will see, the population restriction on districts is so painful for OCC. It may add some value to Temple of Artemis (but not necessarily buildable for OCC if you don't have camps). (Another painful part is some Eurekas are just not doable, e.g. build 2 harbors, but that's clear before you start.)

To go culture victory you build a lot of wonder with Great Work slot, including Apadana. And take advantage of the trade routes. (I've only seen people do OCC culture with Sweden and China, not sure about other civs.) I believe 500 tourism is doable and you can slowly get a culture victory, maybe using rock bands. You certainly won't get 2000 tourism as those games where you settle a lot of cities.

You made me really want to play a Portugal deity OCC. I will let you know if I do.

-------------------------

P.S. I can't say anything about using pillaging economy to win OCC. Pillaging makes everything so different. Normally I try to play peacefully and take advantage of pillaging is kinda like cheating.

Oh another hard part is to keep being in Golden Age. You may need to plan a dark age and a heroic age in the case of OCC. The late era golden ages can be hard.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Great Zimbabwe may or may not be necessary. Don't count that into your strategy (for OCC district slot is very tight if you build a harbor I suggest you don't build a CH at all).

I think a CH would be kind of necessary. With OoM you'd have another trade route, and it will give juicy Great Merchant Points. Focus on those who enhance your trade routes capacity and yields though, and emissary.


For the rest, I'd say that DipV is the only one achievable without too many struggle in a OCC. It's a victory achieved once without even a city. So, unlike CulV (needing lots of cities to slot your great works), DomV (which would defeat the purpose), DipV isn't reliant on cities. SciV can be achievable (especially if you have a lot of water tiles, thanks to the School of Navigation), and RelV too (even if you have no bonus towards it though).

 

[tedhebert]

Definitely ancestral hall based on how much higher it finished than audience chamber.

Made me laugh out loud... you hold grudges ?

 

[679x]

I mentioned Portugal OCC in one of the threads - I've never done OCC but I want to give it a shot with Portugal after first trying them out in a regular game.

To go culture victory you build a lot of wonder with Great Work slot, including Apadana. And take advantage of the trade routes. (I've only seen people do OCC culture with Sweden and China, not sure about other civs.) I believe 500 tourism is doable and you can slowly get a culture victory, maybe using rock bands. You certainly won't get 2000 tourism as those games where you settle a lot of cities.

I think alongside Diplo victory, you could probably do culture as well. Since you have a guaranteed trade route per foreign civ, you're almost guaranteed to be able to get +25% tourism to each civ through international routes to them, but I say 'almost' because the challenge instead will be making sure that you can actually connect a route to each civ, given the restrictions the civ gets on international routes. Landlocked civ with no harbours = no bonus tourism. Still, this gives OCC Portugal an advantage over other OCC culture civs. Presumably you'd also rely a lot on rock bands, since they of course aren't limited by the number of cities you have.

There's going to be a bit of a situation where if you have too many water tiles around, you're going to have less room for most wonders and districts, so I don't think the UB will be something you'll get a heck of a lot of value out of. Or, at least, you don't necessarily WANT to get a lot of value out of it, because that means you have a lot of water and less land. I feel like you'd just want enough water such that you're a coastal city and can fit Colossus (and Statue of Liberty for diplo victory - why not?), but then more land to fit all the other districts and wonders you're going to want. Almost like if your city is in an inlet or on an isthmus in a canal position. But if you have a lot of water, sure, UB + Mausoleum is going to be pretty juicy.
...Though, the UB gives the science to the city no matter whether the water tiles can be worked, right? I.e. if they have wonders or districts on them? So maybe it won't be so bad.

 

[tedhebert]

I mentioned Portugal OCC in one of the threads - I've never done OCC but I want to give it a shot with Portugal after first trying them out in a regular game.

I think alongside Diplo victory, you could probably do culture as well. Since you have a guaranteed trade route per foreign civ, you're almost guaranteed to be able to get +25% tourism to each civ through international routes to them, but I say 'almost' because the challenge instead will be making sure that you can actually connect a route to each civ, given the restrictions the civ gets on international routes. Landlocked civ with no harbours = no bonus tourism. Still, this gives OCC Portugal an advantage over other OCC culture civs. Presumably you'd also rely a lot on rock bands, since they of course aren't limited by the number of cities you have.

There's going to be a bit of a situation where if you have too many water tiles around, you're going to have less room for most wonders and districts, so I don't think the UB will be something you'll get a heck of a lot of value out of. Or, at least, you don't necessarily WANT to get a lot of value out of it, because that means you have a lot of water and less land. I feel like you'd just want enough water such that you're a coastal city and can fit Colossus (and Statue of Liberty for diplo victory - why not?), but then more land to fit all the other districts and wonders you're going to want. Almost like if your city is in an inlet or on an isthmus in a canal position. But if you have a lot of water, sure, UB + Mausoleum is going to be pretty juicy.
...Though, the UB gives the science to the city no matter whether the water tiles can be worked, right? I.e. if they have wonders or districts on them? So maybe it won't be so bad.

yeah well rock band cost faith heh ? and you wouldn’t have been able to build a valid faith economy ?

and yes of course lady liberty should be top priority if going diplo

 

[679x]

yeah well rock band cost faith heh ? and you wouldn’t have been able to build a valid faith economy ?

and yes of course lady liberty should be top priority if going diplo

Yea, I'm not entirely sure how the faith economy is going to work, but you can still get some bits and pieces of faith from international trade routes and whatnot, more with the Triangular Trade policy. I presume that Portugal's bonus works to enhance the yields given by that policy since the bonus gold/faith are added to the ordinary yields of a trade route and are there when you choose which city to send the trade route to.

In a game with 11 other civs, you can get 11 routes + another from market/lighthouse, and 1.5 faith at minimum for each route, so 12*1.5 = 18 faith per turn from the card. Not a lot but it's a policy card you're probably going to want to use anyway for the gold (12*6 = 72 gold from the card). Add in the faith from districts in the destination city, as well as bonuses from alliances. I believe alliance trade route bonuses will be multiplied as well!

Also, if you're lucky, an AI could bring you a religion that gives faith, like the +4 faith per wonder.

Unfortunately, none of that is going to get you all that many rock bands unless you save up your faith for the entire game until you can buy rock bands. If you really had to, you could squeeze in a holy site somewhere just for the faith, if your city is going to be growing enough to the point where you can afford to take up a district slot for it.

 

[tedhebert]

I suppose Reyna with Contractor for the district gold buys will be desirable, leaving the prod for wonders ! You could slot reyna for the district buys then move back to another like pingala if you want the science/culture and/or GPP.

of course, Amani will be active... But still that a low amount of governor points necessary to get all you need (adding owl points)

 

[Francel]

Made me laugh out loud... you hold grudges ?

My apologies. That thread still has me on edge. I just wish it had happened before I got the audience chamber heart tattoo.

 

[IsabelBraganca]

Some points for a possible culture victory. You can use religious tourism to help, specially if playing with secret society mode, heroes mode, and corporations mode. You can get monopolies with OCC if you have Amansi. You try to get extra copies of luxuries from being suzerain of city states, and use Amansi to delete the luxury from other civs.

Reliquaries + Pilgrimage will help you get more faith and increase your tourism. The more cities you convert; the more faith you'll get. Converting civilizations helps to increase the religious tourism towards them. You can use wonders to increase this kind of tourism further. Wars are really an option specially against civilization with high culture. You can pillage and destroy cities. Portugal will have gold to keep a good stating army.

 

[tedhebert]

Some points for a possible culture victory. You can use religious tourism to help, specially if playing with secret society mode, heroes mode, and corporations mode. You can get monopolies with OCC if you have Amansi. You try to get extra copies of luxuries from being suzerain of city states, and use Amansi to delete the luxury from other civs.

Reliquaries + Pilgrimage will help you get more faith and increase your tourism. The more cities you convert; the more faith you'll get. Converting civilizations helps to increase the religious tourism towards them. You can use wonders to increase this kind of tourism further. Wars are really an option specially against civilization with high culture. You can pillage and destroy cities. Portugal will have gold to keep a good stating army.

Whew... ok... but first, you gotta get the religion ;-) That means spending a lot of effort doing that at the start... And then, seems to me the faith income will be a little too low to use pilgrimage adequately ? But I DO see your strategy. Will think about it, very interesting... thx !

 

[hhhhhh]

I tried to start a Portugal OCC. But I wasn't able to find a start that's good enough. If someone find one (standard size and speed, no mode) please share the seeds.

 

[tedhebert]

Ok so completed my OCC with portugal today.

Diplo win, but was alone in science (11 turns into SV) and culture (700 to 300 closest AI civ).

So... Yes, Portugal really IS OP. To be so far ahead on turn 269 in 3 of the victory conditions (obviously not in dom, and didn't manage to catch a religion), on immortal, seems to clearly indicate that.

My settings were Immortal, Huge map (small continents), and I had Barbarians, Secret Societies (went Owl of course), Heroes, Monopolies, and Shuffle.

I've got to admit that early Sinbad with Portugal is really a killer. you get loads of cash, load of map explored and loads of civs met extremely early in the game. Makes a huge difference.

Anyways... was fun... My first successful OCC ;-)

 

[PiR]

Thanks, I want to try it too, now! Maybe I'll wait for them to be nerfed, though.