What take into account in isolation game (imm/deity)?

[gavenkoa]

I've got Imm isolation game recently and cannot set proper objectives to do.

As I understand the main goal is to get to Astronomy as quick as possible. The problems start here:

1) what is the reason for Astronomy?

* To boost trade root income 1G -> 3G?
* To exchange tech?
* To trade for happiness?

I think that tech exchange + trading for happiness are the major thing here, providing immense boots to the empire. CMIIW


2) should I sacrifice speed to Astronomy by side-tech?

I find Alphabet useful. After certain turn you don't have units to build/overflow and the number of wonders is slow to rotate them between cities, Library Scientists are not enough to eat up food surplus. This way it is possible to burn H/F into B.

I avoided Currency but it might have sense to add extra trade root earlier...

I avoided Monarchy path because of Gold + Forges...


3) what to do with late whip?

Really after all those Workers/Settlers/Work Boats (for expansion) & Warriors for Happinnes/fog busting & Libraries/Forges for multipliers/GP I don't know how to spend H/F. There is nothing to whip, really. I sidestepped to Alphabet to have the way to burn H/F somewhere.


4) After getting Astronomy and getting first contacts I don't know what to do. That also means I haven't prepared to this point 30T ago.

I see some options but unable to prioritize them:

* invade some AIs
* settle unoccupied space

I don't like them for the reason of upkeep costs. Invasion path is still promising if I target Feudalism to make vassal ally (step for domination victory).

I don't know when to build army. It will creep economy if building is started before first contact & overseas +3G per city.

I don't know what military to target. Like the game state is near the Feudalism, I have to discover Construction and then there are Engineering (Trebuched) / Civil Service (Maceman) or even some distant Guild (Knights).


5) Military goals interfere with research path.

Should I go for Monarchy? I rose limits via resource trades from 6Happy to 8Happy and Hereditary Rule looks less appealing...

Should I go for military tech? Which paths are viable?

What about Philosophy/Liberalism race?


6) What Great Persons are important and how to get/spend them?

I produced 3 GS, early went into +25% research, other two into Astronomy bulbing.

I had second GS for a long time, but there was no any useful tech to bulb into (Mathematics isn't an option, I can self tech it in 6T, Aesthetics is a sidestep from Astronomy).

Also my capital aren't that great, I think that settling first GS would be more appropriate than Academy... And I might to build Academy with second GS, when was unused for many tens turns.

I had Forges early, don't know what to do with GE if I have one...


7) GLH when isolated? What's the reason?

 

[Zavior]

I can't offer you much help but a certain someone has made a video on the topic that you migth find helpful

 

[AcaMetis]

1) what is the reason for Astronomy?
2) should I sacrifice speed to Astronomy by side-tech?
3) what to do with late whip?
4) After getting Astronomy and getting first contacts I don't know what to do. That also means I haven't prepared to this point 30T ago.
5) Military goals interfere with research path.
6) What Great Persons are important and how to get/spend them?
7) GLH when isolated? What's the reason?

1. All the reasons you mentioned, as well as being able to interact with the other AIs diplomatically. If you come across a situation where one AI is threatening to run away with the game you have to stop them somehow - bribe others on them to delay strong techers or break up happy faces, bribe them off of their targets to delay their military conquests, perhaps swap a cultural monster out of the Free Speech civic to delay their victory until you can come in and raze hell, etc. - and the earlier you make contact the easier it'll be to get a sense of the state of affairs and manipulate them to your benefit.
2. To a point, and depending on what your situation is. If you've got no happiness whatsoever, grab Monarchy. If you've got Calender resources coming out of your ears, grab that. Marble? Aesthetics/Literature for (failbuilding) wonders isn't the worst idea. Food and happiness aplenty? Code of Laws, etc. General rule, IIRC, is that you can afford one detour, barring rare maps where more than one is called for.
3. If there's nothing you need to whip, nothing. Work your cottages and other tiles to tech as fast as possible, and save the whip for when you've got something that justifies whipping off of good tiles (or good tiles to be). Having Settlers ready to plop down the rest of your empire once you've reached Optics, for instance, is a good idea (Astronomy you're going to bulb 90% of anyway, so higher maintenance at that point isn't exactly relevant).
4. Unoccupied space you settle when you've reached Optics, ideally, since you want those cities to grow ASAP and Optics (with two GS waiting to mostly bulb Astro) is the point where you can afford to do that. After first contact you prepare your cities for (hopefully) the incoming wave of new resources and techs, so grow those puppies, and unless you're confident that you can win peacefully you start to prepare for war. Mostly infrastructure at this point, Barracks and Forges. Don't start whipping units until you're ready to send those units off to conquer someone, you don't want to pay for them sitting pretty in your cities.
5. Unless you're going to win peacefully military goals are your research path. Trade for the cheaper old techs while you focus on teching your way to a military breakout unit (you'll probably have to invest turns into a few things to get them for a reasonable price, though, and self tech some of the really old and cheap stuff so it won't count for WFYABTA). Lib is a luxury that can pay out handsomely if you manage to lib Steel, but don't count on that on Imm/Deity. It's possible, but not consistent.
6. If you're going for Grenadiers, Great Scientists can bulb Chemistry (though you might have to avoid certain techs in order to do that). If you're going for Cuirs/Cavalry, Great Merchants can help upgrade cheaper units (production is generally the bottleneck in iso, since you need a bunch of boats as well). Academy in a solid capital of course helps speed up research both before and after Astro, and if you end up with a Great Engineer you can always rush a wonder, if a good one is available. And, of course, a Golden Age is always an option to speed up research, swap civics, and get out another great person or two.
7. If there's offshore islands for you to settle, early commerce boost, otherwise GLH in iso is mainly a midgame investment. One extra riverside cottage in every coastal city early, one extra goldmine in every coastal city after Astro. It's not bad by any means, but that's a lot of early hammers invested into something that's only going to have a big payout much later. And after the early teching is mostly done and tech trading is available, at that.

 

[gavenkoa]

bribe others on them to delay strong techers or break up happy faces

OK, have to practice that!

I thought that "happy faces" is a problem. Can I elaborate on that? If I'll go war on one of them does "happy faces" (diplomatic relationship above cautious) mean they:

* form war alliance against my aggression?
* they ask friends for vassalage being near the extermination point (meaning enforced peace and missed few juicy cities)?

swap a cultural monster out of the Free Speech civic to delay their victory

OK, I didn't pay attention to Free Speech with its +100% culture boost.

Food and happiness aplenty? Code of Laws, etc.

Code of Laws means "Caste system", and that means unlimited Merchants, Scientists, Artists and step to Civil Service/Bureaucracy.

The problem here is that I need to divert 3 steps from Astro: Alphabet/Currency/Code of Law. On other hand excessive Food is wasted without whips...

But it is very tempting path before Astro, when you see extra food rots without whipping ))

If there's nothing you need to whip, nothing. Work your cottages and other tiles to tech as fast as possible, and save the whip for when you've got something

OK. I thought I missed something gamebreaking here.

Mostly infrastructure at this point, Barracks and Forges.

I made Forges but forgot about Barracks.

Lib is a luxury that can pay out handsomely if you manage to lib Steel, but don't count on that on Imm/Deity

It looks like it is better to go for military (Guilds are 1 step ahead, in my game AIs still lacks Machinery/Engineering).

Great Merchants can help upgrade cheaper units (production is generally the bottleneck in iso, since you need a bunch of boats as well).

Great tip! And Code of Law is a key thing here. I'm not that experienced to originate with that myself ))

a Golden Age is always an option to speed up research, swap civics, and get out another great person or two

I see the problem with pre Code of Law Golden Age - it is impossible to generate enough GP points with only 2 Scientists (Library) and possibly 1 Engineer.

Priests / Great Prophets seem the dead end and requires investment into religious path, and even religious race as we isolated ))

Do I miss something regarding GP during pre Code of Law Golden Age?

If there's offshore islands for you to settle, early commerce boost, otherwise GLH in iso is mainly a midgame investment

What is game mechanic behind offshore?

Like internal mainland trade roots give +1G/route. What I get with an offshore city, +2G/route? Is it for all cities on the continent on 1-to-1 relation (like I have as many offshore cities and mainland for optimum per routes)?

 

[sampsa]

There is nothing to whip, really.

This is a key revelation. Because you don't have much to do with , you should gear up more towards i.e. build cottages. Monarchy is great, but it's a distraction. This makes Mids an exceptionally strong wonder when isolated.

 

[AcaMetis]

OK, have to practice that!

I thought that "happy faces" is a problem. Can I elaborate on that? If I'll go war on one of them does "happy faces" (diplomatic relationship above cautious) mean they:

* form war alliance against my aggression?
* they ask friends for vassalage being near the extermination point (meaning enforced peace and missed few juicy cities)?

That is a possibility, yes, and not one that's necessarily limited to AIs that are pleased or better with the AI you attack. As for targets becoming a peace vassal to someone else, who than DoWs you, that works the same as a war bribe - if the AI the target would vassal to doesn't like the AI enough to accept the bribe they won't accept, and/or if they like you enough to not be bribed into DoWing you they won't accept the bribe.

Code of Laws means "Caste system", and that means unlimited Merchants, Scientists, Artists and step to Civil Service/Bureaucracy.

The problem here is that I need to divert 3 steps from Astro: Alphabet/Currency/Code of Law. On other hand excessive Food is wasted without whips...

But it is very tempting path before Astro, when you see extra food rots without whipping ))

You'll never go as far as Civil Service in iso, since that blocks off the Astro bulb (Paper, Education, Alpha, Printing Press needed to bulb Astro in that case, assuming you don't grab Meditation on accident and have to bulb Philo as well). You also don't need Alpha/Currency for Code, necessarily, you only need Writing and either Currency (which you can unlock through Math or Alpha) or Priesthood (through Poly due to the aforementioned "bulb Philo" problem). Math/currency has the benefit of math chops and building wealth, poly/priesthood has the benefit of being very cheap in terms of beaker cost. Which one is better depends on the map, of course. Either way Code is something you only go for in iso when you've got lots of food and happy to spare - having Mids obviously adds to the appeal as well, especially because it comes pre-packed with the necessary happiness to get the most out of it.

I see the problem with pre Code of Law Golden Age - it is impossible to generate enough GP points with only 2 Scientists (Library) and possibly 1 Engineer.

Priests / Great Prophets seem the dead end and requires investment into religious path, and even religious race as we isolated ))

Do I miss something regarding GP during pre Code of Law Golden Age?

No, you're correct in that running a GA pre-Caste just plain isn't optimal, but it's also generally not a problem either. Before Caste you mainly get nothing but Great Scientist - hip hip hurrah, that's what we actually want - and if you do get a "wrong" GP you can just save it for a GA when you're ready to push out a few specific GPs with Caste. You're in a situation where you go for, say, Mids and get a low odds GE? Either rush a good wonder (free Great Library? Yes please) or save him for a later GA to quickly get out the Great Scientists you need, or whatever else you're lacking.

What is game mechanic behind offshore?

Like internal mainland trade roots give +1G/route. What I get with an offshore city, +2G/route? Is it for all cities on the continent on 1-to-1 relation (like I have as many offshore cities and mainland for optimum per routes)?

Offshore cities get +100% trade route income for being overseas, so with internal trade routes that is indeed 2 per route. How it works in terms of trade routes I've got no idea, I imagine it's 1:1 but don't quote me on that.

 

[Snowbird]

You'll never go as far as Civil Service in iso, since ...

On anything but Deity I would. Depends on the land (amount and quality) but something like the linked Boudica game on Immortal - cottage up and go for Liberalism awaiting for AI to show up. It would end in nuke war probably, and probably is not the approach for the fastest win, but totally doable.

I think rush for Astro or die is mostly Deity level stuff. Bellow Immortal rushing Astro is good for trade routes, but AI will have little in terms of techs and resources.

 

[AcaMetis]

Personally I think the greatest advantage to early Astro is being able to get involved with AI diplomacy that much earlier. If the rest of the AIs are all weak and themselves isolated, than yeah, no hurry. But if they're all on the same continent and one is rapidly conquering the place, or if there's a giant lovefest going on and they're sharing techs like cheap candy, it's best to put a stop to that early. Sure, an Imp or Emp runaway isn't nearly as threatening as a Deity runaway, but why allow the problem to exist at all if you can prevent it? Win before you DoW, as that one dude who's name I'm not going to try to spell off-hand likes to be quoted as saying .

 

[gavenkoa]

if there's a giant lovefest going on

Found that quite hilarious.

I understand why mutual love is threatening (so far I know definitely only about crazy tech trading) what is the way to break smiles? It is a question for a separate thread, any jotting is enough to help with an idea...

Some bribes about going into the war, switch religion / civics? Ask to stop trading?

 

[AcaMetis]

Found that quite hilarious.

I understand why mutual love is threatening (so far I know definitely only about crazy tech trading) what is the way to break smiles? It is a question for a separate thread, any jotting is enough to help with an idea...

Some bribes about going into the war, switch religion / civics? Ask to stop trading?

The best way is to bribe people into declaring war, that's a permanent -3 diplo penalty for whoever DoWed and a permanent -1 for whoever did the bribing/requesting (and recall that AIs can bribe each other into wars, so AIs you can't drag into a war might get dragged into it anyway). Swapping people out of favorite civics or dominant religions can also work wonders, just keep in mind that you can only bribe/espionage flip people into what religion/civics you're running. Trade embargoes are generally not worth it, they don't do much and give you a diplo penalty for arranging it, so it's a net negative more often than not.

 

[Snowbird]

Sure, an Imp or Emp runaway isn't nearly as threatening as a Deity runaway, but why allow the problem to exist at all if you can prevent it?

I don't think I ever saw a real Emperor level runaway. Not sure what Imp is...

The fun of solving problem, I guess. Immortal iso is probably the only setting I used some fancy naval units like sumbarines. And paratroopers after nukes. Can be fun once in a while.

 

[AcaMetis]

Imp is me not spelling Imm(ortal) right .

 

[Pangaea]

Found that quite hilarious.

Gotta watch out for those ORG(y) leaders

Am not a big fan of Isolation games because they all become kinda samey, but I do agree that even on non-Deity/Immortal, it's a good idea to get Astro quickly. Trade routes are great, you can backfill all the stuff you skipped (more or less), and you get to control the diplo to a certain extend. Let's say there is a Mansa-fueled mono-religious lovefest going on... you want to throw a torch into the ring and start to break them up a bit. It makes everything else easier. Maybe you can start a war a bit before invading, so the initial war is easier. Get a vassal or two, and roll from there. Once you get a foothold and can produce troops locally, the rest is easy. Especially against AIs that have been damaged by previous wars, or don't have good defenders like rifles (or even pikes).

 

[dankok8]

Intercontinental trade routes are a serious eco boost. I've gone up 100-200 beakers before from Astro alone.