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[NFP] What the December Update really encourages.

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Lily_Lancer, Dec 16, 2020.

  1. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Had a look at the update.

    Amenity: Adjust negative penalty, double positive amenity bonus.

    Well, this do encourages buildings of entertainment complexes.

    However, in early and mid game, apart from Colosseum, the seemingly only way to keep amenity is to lower your population. (EC is still too costly, 150-200 production for 1 amenity in 1 city? Huh.)

    Given the high negative amenity penalty and limited source of amenities in early/mid game, I guess we'll be trying to limit our population at 4 in future games. Except for a few cities. If having 1 more population means -10% yield, growing from 4 to 5 is not very wise(unless you have very high yield tiles, or Pingala). Only in late game when Water Park /Zoos become available will we start to grow those cities again.

    Another change is the +50%/50% yield to buildings card. Now they require 15 population and +4 adj, which means you need at least 8 amenity to fund each of those cities to keep it neutral. The solution is also simple-- Just ignore such cards. Now you no longer have to pursue 10 population. This also encourages we to keep our cities at 4 population.

    Conclusion: The new changes strongly encourage us to keep our cities at 4 while building/dominating more cities.

    Other changes, such as trade route bonus to CS. They're good. Now trade routes value more. Also maybe Democracy will be better than Communism now? Previously Communism is better.

    For SS, in fact the most significant change is the governor title change. Having much fewer early governors means a golden Classical is difficult again, severely reduces the power of Voidsinger. No longer a no-brainer choice now. If you can still get golden Classical you may still choose Voidsinger. Otherwise maybe Vampire is better, especially when early barbs are enhanced by the anti-cav change.

    The power of Hermetic Order depends on how Ley Lines are placed. +2 is a good adj bonus anyway. But we don't know how many of them we may get in normal games.

    Unsure but it seems that policy slots for governments are increased. Unsure about the effect.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2020
  2. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Enhanced: Civs with amenity bonus/Civs that can build more districts in low-pop cities

    Byzantium, Brazil, Scotland,Rome, Germany,...

    Malus: Civs that need to build a lot of districts/Civs that have bonus on food

    Russia, UK, Carthage, Kumar, Japan, ...
     
  3. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    Yeah, the good old "ghost city" strategy, spamming cities with the population of a village.

    I sincerely doubt anyone but the minmaxers using this strategy.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2020
    nzcamel, leandrombraz, TCBB and 3 others like this.
  4. The googles do nothing

    The googles do nothing King

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    You get amenities for 4 cities from each luxury. Getting 3 unique lux in each 4 cites seems like a fair goal. If you have to get to 15 pop for +50% and then you can afford to have -10% from amenities.
     
  5. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    7 amenity for 15 pop: -10% all yield, +40% for buildings in campus only. Also you need 16 houses, a lot of food, etc. to support those population.

    7 amenity for 4 pop: +20% all yield, including buildings in campus.
     
  6. anonxanemone

    anonxanemone Warlord

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    I just did a calculation comparing one Ecstatic 15 population city and three Content 7 population cities (they require about the same amount of Amenities). Assuming the above cities each have +4 Campuses with full buildings (i.e. Library, University, and Research Lab):
    • Science for one Ecstatic 15 population city with the new Rationalism policy = [7.5 (from population) + 2 (from Library) + 4 (from University) + 5 (from Research Lab)] * 1.20 * 2.00 = 44.4 Science
    • Science for three Content 7 population cities = 3 * [3.5 (from population) + 2 (from Library) + 4 (from University) + 5 (from Research Lab)] * 1.00 = 43.5 Science
    It appears they end up being similar unless I am missing something :/
     
  7. Pfeffersack

    Pfeffersack Deity

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    Nice analysis, but whoever is we, count me out...I will still let my cities growth, until a diminishing food surplus fades growth out naturally :) Even after the first amenity nerf I didn't have much trouble to fulfil my needs in this regard and as much as I welcome that cities again get hit with a penalty when dropping below 0, I doubt there will be such a scarcity to force me into such measures. Limiting cities to 4 pops is probably just the perfect definition of the opposite of "building a civ" to me :lol:

    I disagree on Communism vs. Democracy; I already ended up with Democracy as T3 gov in most cases so far. But of course yes: Those changes further strengthen Democracy by encouraging foreign routes.
     
    Leah and Rachael and Tech Osen like this.
  8. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    1: You shall multiply the latter by 1.5, as the other 50% still works.
    2: You forget to count adj bonus
    3: Rationalism only applies to buildings.

    Correct Formula: (assuming double adj bonus card, and two 6-envoy science CS)

    Science for one Ecstatic 15 population city with the new Rationalism policy = [7.5 (from population) + 8(from Campus)+ 12(from CS)+(2 (from Library) + 4 (from University) + 5 (from Research Lab)*2.00] * 1.20 = 59.4 Science

    Science for three Content 7 population cities = 3 * [3.5 (from population) +12(from CS)+8 (from Campus)+ (2 (from Library) + 4 (from University) + 5 (from Research Lab)*1.50] * 1.00 = 120.0 Science

     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2020
  9. anonxanemone

    anonxanemone Warlord

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    Oops. Forgot the adjacency bonus! I knew I was missing something. The building yields need to be multiplied by the policy as well... BTW where does 1.5 come from?
    New calculation:
    • Science for one Ecstatic 15 population city with the new Rationalism policy = {7.5 (from population) + 4 (from adjacency) + [2 (from Library) + 4 (from University) + 5 (from Research Lab)] * 2.00} * 1.20 = 40.2 Science
    • Science for three Content 7 population cities = 3 * [3.5 (from population) + 4 (from adjacency) + 2 (from Library) + 4 (from University) + 5 (from Research Lab)] * 1.00 * 1.5 = 83.25 Science
    Does this look about right now?
    Please ignore my calculation... Lily_Lancer did the correct calculation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2020
  10. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Of course not. Only 50% is from population, another 50% is from adj bonus, which you assume we already has.

    Also you forgot to add CS bonus. Which plays a giant role in Science. (Actually the major role if you have 3 or more Science CSs on map).
     
  11. anonxanemone

    anonxanemone Warlord

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    Wow... that's double the yields for the same Amenities. Crazy.
     
  12. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    In fact, if you look at constant amenity per city (for example, 7 amenities per city), actually a 4-pop-7-amenity city yields more science than cities of any other populations, due to the upcoming amenity system.
     
  13. 7daysofwar

    7daysofwar Chieftain

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    To be honest, you are all talking about how amazing those cities will become with only 4 population but will the lack and you only talk about a city with only a campus but you will only have one more district slot left. Like this means that you either leave out a commercial hub/harbor or a theater square which means you need a lot of 4 population to make up for it. And if you go for domantion you might want an encampment for those great generals, you still need to place a goverment plaza because that district is quit strong or if you get a civ with religious abilities you might want holy sites which also take a district slot. I feel like you are hurting yourself more with keeping only 4 population cities instead of growing your city and building some more districts......
     
  14. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    The most common and easiest to aquire source for amenities, luxury resources, give amenities to 4 cities. So to me this is just a hypothetical comparison because it will rarely be a choice you have to make while actually playing.
     
  15. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    You can save your efforts of growth into settling new cities. You only need to build a settler and settle a new city, grow it to 4 and you can have 2 brand new district slots. A settler is much easier than growing a city from 4 to 10, or from 10 to 16, etc. isn't it?
     
  16. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    This is not a simple question about which option is better. What you call "effort" I call fun. Building big cities with an esthetical lay out is what's fun to me. More fun than reaching a victory condition 100 turns earlier.
    I'm sure all your calculations are spot on but I often get the feeling while reading your posts that you can't imagine that people play the game other than ultra efficient.
     
  17. Galvatron

    Galvatron Warlord

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    Settlers can't settle within the borders of another city though.
     
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  18. kryat

    kryat King

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    The “other” 50% bonus now takes a +4 adjacency. That’s going to be extremely difficult to get in a pop 7 city without a very lucky mountain or geothermal roll. Higher pop cities can get there from extra districts, but would need at least two mountains or one vent and then 4 districts. (Except Japan, Australia, Korea, Maya, Netherlands).
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2020
  19. Timberdoodle

    Timberdoodle Chieftain

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    I noticed that on yesterdays live stream Carl said 'We wanted to make sure Entertainment Complexes are worth building, we've made a couple of changes to them including the major adjacency bonuses to Theatre Squares'.

    That has me wondering if there's not some further changes coming to ECs that we're not aware of yet. After all, we've had some surprises in the last few patch notes. I'll guess we'll find out later today!
     
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  20. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    For those of you who advocate lots of size 4 cifies, I do hope you give it a try tomorrow and let us know how it works. I can't see how you would have enough production to build universities or research labs. Not to mention expensive military units or wonders. Wonders aren't necessary, but do spice up gameplay.

    Personally I would never do it. But then I never limited myself to size 10 cities before either. I'll probably bite the bullet and build more entertainment districts. I just wish zoos didn't come so late. But I usually don't have amenity problems until then anyways.

    As for above I doubt EC's have any more changes. Cheaper EC buildings would be nice, but I doubt it.
     

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