1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[NFP] What the December Update really encourages.

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Lily_Lancer, Dec 16, 2020.

  1. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,777
    I'm not one of those but I think the point they are trying to make is that this might work beter in the early game, before zoo's and waterparks make amenities a lot easier.
     
  2. Pirate Hamster

    Pirate Hamster Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2020
    Messages:
    7
    Gender:
    Male
    I wonder if the AI has been tweaked to prefer farms and growth less. They always seem to build large cities.

    And I seem to remember that in a previous pass they increased the AI priority for slotting Rationalism. I could be remembering incorrectly, but this seems like it will affect he AI in a meaningful way.
     
  3. Equilin

    Equilin King

    Joined:
    May 8, 2017
    Messages:
    607
    Gender:
    Male
    They just need to let the area bonus from zoos and stadiums stack again! I can understand IZ stacks being OP, but the current amenity threshold mean EC wont be OP even with stacking
     
    Ircher likes this.
  4. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz Emperor

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2014
    Messages:
    1,435
    Gender:
    Male
    Not even minmaxers, considering that this is a worse case scenario. You might need to control growth in a few cities, but it's unlikely that you'll find yourself in a situation where keeping your cities at 4 pop to avoid the penalty actually makes sense. Just adopting Classical Republic already give you +1 amenity in every city with a district. You might get suzerainty over Buenos Aires, Cahokia, Muscat or Zanzibar; You can build the Colosseum, Temple of Artemis and Huey Teocalli, you can trade for luxuries with the AI. I like to grow my cities and even without the free 1 pop, it hasn't been hard to keep all cities with at least 0 amenities, often more than that, even without the Colosseum. If anything, this update encourages you to adopt Classical Republic and increases the value of anything that gives early amenities..

    The EC already stacks with the Water Park, so you can get +6 amenities on each city from the regional effect, plus +2 from the district and tier 1 building in the city that has it, +1 in the Stadium if you adopt Sports Media. That's a lot of amenities already. Stacking as much as you want, like it worked before, would be broken and it would encourage players to spam ECs everywhere. IMO it's a better design to encourage building only a few ECs and WPs in strategic positions. The regional effect is fine as it is, what really needs a buff is the local amenities you get from the district and tier 1 building, so it makes sense to build them early. As it's now, it's hard to justify building an EC before you unlock the Zoo, aside from building it to get the Colosseum.

    They could also add a regional effect lens, while they are at it...
     
  5. Buktu

    Buktu Prince

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    Messages:
    329
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    You can always chop/buy stuff. Or prebuild military units early and upgrade them afterwards. Also there will be some bigger cities with better production (3 or 4 maybe, those where you are going for spaceports later on) where you can build units/wonders.
     
  6. Earl of Pembroke

    Earl of Pembroke Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2020
    Messages:
    22
    Religion is a great indirect tool for boosting amenities. Faith generated can lead to National Parks (+2 amenities for the host city and also +1 amenity to four nearby cities)
    And, to a lesser degree, you can use faith to "buy" Stupas as the tier 3 religious building to generate +1 amenity in that city.
     
    Pfeffersack and 8housesofelixir like this.
  7. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,788
    Location:
    Łódź, PL
    Luckily 4 pop cities will be constantly disloyal :)
     
  8. criZp

    criZp Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,879
    Location:
    Nidaros, Norway
    I agree with you, but it would be preferable if the more fun playstyle wasn't the inferior one.
     
    Elhoim likes this.
  9. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2004
    Messages:
    2,507
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Isidro, Argentina.
    I think Civ should go back again to pop creating yields and buildings/adjacency working as modifiers instead of having yields without any population required to get them.
     
  10. The googles do nothing

    The googles do nothing King

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2017
    Messages:
    641
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN
    No wonder the AI has trouble planing it's cities when us meatbags can't figure it out. I've always just naturally filled in the 'bad locations' in my empire with cities later in the game without really thinking about the effects of amenities. I'll have to think about settling those extra cites.

    @anonxanemone @Lily_Lancer I would be interested to see the Civic output of those city calculations.
     
    Ircher and Earl of Pembroke like this.
  11. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,360
    Location:
    Berkeley,CA
    For each level of amenity you gain 3 loyalty, for each level of unhappiness you gain 3 disloyalty. So 4-pop ecstatic cities will be more loyal than large unhappy cities in fact.
     
  12. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,788
    Location:
    Łódź, PL
    Correct me if I am wrong, cause I had a really long brake from civving, but it is not true.
    First of all, not level of ammenity, but level of happiness, and level of happiness is let's say 2 ammenities
    The highest bonus from happiness you can get is +6. From unhappiness -12 in theory. In practice I have never seen lower happiness level than -2, so -6 loyalty. To get penalty of -3 to loyality, you need 4 population.

    And here is the clue.
    The main source of loyality is population and regional pressure. Every pop is 0,5-2 loyality. Also only population loyality is used to make pressure on other cities, and happiness level is not a factor.

    In golden era 4 population is 8 loyality, so +5 loyality if we take into account -3 from changing happiness level (if it will change, you can still have enough ammenity). Also normal age is loyality positive. All those people make pressure on neraby cities too.

    Let us imagine 5 cities in a cross, 5 tiles away from the central cities. 3 are players', 2 are AI. Player keep cities at 4 pop, AI grows to 10pop.

    Your central city loyality from population in golden era is:
    8 from a city, 8 from 2 nearby cities, total 16
    If AI cities are in golden era too, they make a pressure of 20 on your cities. Here you really need those bonus from happiness to keep loyality.
    If there are 3 AI cities vs 2 player's cities, your cities are losing loyality.

    What happens if you dont get golden era and AI gets? Your 4pop city needs a governor, because even with max happiness level it is 14 versus 20. Your cities are low pop and fragile to religious pressure, so can flip to AI's religion causing even more loyality concerns.

    -----

    I am not declining 4 pop cities approach.
    We just need to be aware, that on borders it is a little fragile and we need 7pop cities there or one big city making significant loyality pressure on those tiny settlements
     
  13. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

    Joined:
    May 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,360
    Location:
    Berkeley,CA


    Sadly there're so many misinformation on this forum, that people without even knowing the correct loyalty formula are challenging using his own formulas which I have nothing to say about.

    There have already been a lot of discussions about loyalty on this forum, why not browse yourself and correct your formula, before making any challenges?
     
  14. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,788
    Location:
    Łódź, PL
    So i wrote correct me if I am wrong

    Instead as usual you started humilating

    I've mistaken 2 and 1,5 for golden era, that's right and the formula domestic vs foreign in cross example too.

    Still, not counting loyality pressure from surrounding cities
    - happiness level of city A has no effect of loyality in city B, only population has
    - 4 more population in golden era is +6 loyality, 4 pop translates to 1 happiness level, so -3. This is still +3 loyality for this city. In normal era it is +1
    Show me my mistake here, please, if you claim small cities are more loyal than big cities. The only case is dark age


    As a consequence, 4 pop border city is less resistant than 8 pop border city to loyality pressure, because it itself has less own loyality and if surrounded by similar size cities, recieves also less loyality support.
    If AI decides for breaad and circus, loyality will drop, so your +20% suddenly turns into -25%
     
    Elhoim and Pfeffersack like this.
  15. Vargas1

    Vargas1 Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2020
    Messages:
    309
    Gender:
    Male
    The broader point is correct though - that loyalty bonuses from happiness level are limited in comparison to the impact of population on loyalty.

    Also, I'd be careful about calling people out for misinformation when you yourself were imprecise with your language. For "each level of amenity" is not the same thing as "each level of unhappiness," and makes a big difference to the point you're trying to make.
     
  16. Ticio

    Ticio Prince

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2020
    Messages:
    342
    Gender:
    Male
    I have just started a game as Japan.


    I have lost the files (an unfortunate accident, the game was very very promising), but before Iost the them, I had discover a place with 2 lay lines adjacent to a wonder. After fast calculations, I was able to put a +10 holy site, +10 port district, +7 commercial hub.


    All of that without mentioning that I was constructing Government plaza (+2 commercial hub, holy site and future districts) and more adjacencies were coming as I was founding another city close. I had the opportunity to make 2 industrial zone of +8 each... ALL of that in the same city!!


    I think that japan + Hermetic order is insane and very fun!! one of the best games I ever had, even if very short...
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2020
  17. Duke William of Normandy

    Duke William of Normandy King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2020
    Messages:
    2,979
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rouen, Normandy
    Unhappiness doesn't even exist in Civ 6, it's a Civ 5 thing.
     
  18. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    1,985
    Location:
    New Zealand
    A better argument would be central hubs surrounded by 4-7 pop cities.
     

Share This Page