What to do against super toku?

[Orzio]

I have ran into this situation twice now both times resulting in me losing the game. Now normally toku have a small empire and still got archers when rest of the world got tanks and he isn’t much of a problem. But for two of my games toku has turned into a super power dominating the world. Basically he attacks anything close to him and in a few turns they become his vassal. And he builds huge armies with ofc benefit from both prot and agress.

Most of the warmongers are not prot so normally I just invade them but the problem I have with toku when he turns into this crazy superpower is that he is prot and as such its really hard to capture his cities add that with the huge armies he build and he cause me some serious trouble.

He is also almost impossible to please with makes it even harder most other warmongers I can handle with diplomacy. I have never cared much about him before since he always sucked but now when he became this super power 2 times in a row he is getting on my nerves.

So my question is if anyone got any nice tips how to deal with him?

 

[kossin]

Can't say without save.

Likely possibility: gift a bunch of things to get him Friendly then win.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

1. Gift a city in the early game. He will like you as much as any other warmonger. Make it the most utter trash city possible too . Or maybe make it border press somebody to trigger him tending towards war there.

2. When you meet him elsewhere, gift 40 gold and open borders. Now he likes you

3. Try to avoid the worst enemy maphack with all leaders but especially guys like this.

4. Even PRO isn't hot against a tech lead. PRO longbows vs cannons is suckage for example (the cannons win easily). Same for arty vs rifles.

5. If all else fails, beat his forces down with airpower (his air gets no bonuses). AGG/PRO infantry at 10 strength is still going to lose to anything contemporary. Hell, it would even lose to cavalry.

OR

6. Nukes don't care one tiny little bit about what promotions were on the units before they died. He could have a stack of 70 great generals, and now they're all gone.

You can also keep him from going massive by bribing him out of wars or negotiating dogpiles against him.

 

[Orzio]

1. Gift a city in the early game. He will like you as much as any other warmonger. Make it the most utter trash city possible too . Or maybe make it border press somebody to trigger him tending towards war there.

2. When you meet him elsewhere, gift 40 gold and open borders. Now he likes you

3. Try to avoid the worst enemy maphack with all leaders but especially guys like this.

4. Even PRO isn't hot against a tech lead. PRO longbows vs cannons is suckage for example (the cannons win easily). Same for arty vs rifles.

5. If all else fails, beat his forces down with airpower (his air gets no bonuses). AGG/PRO infantry at 10 strength is still going to lose to anything contemporary. Hell, it would even lose to cavalry.

OR

6. Nukes don't care one tiny little bit about what promotions were on the units before they died. He could have a stack of 70 great generals, and now they're all gone.

You can also keep him from going massive by bribing him out of wars or negotiating dogpiles against him.

2 people looked 2 posts lol pro

Thanks I will try that. Think I better go dl bug mode so I dont get you traded with our worst enemys by mistake with him. The idiot hates everyone.

If I surive long enouth to get nukes and air its like free win thanks to the stupied AI

 

[TheMeInTeam]

2 people looked 2 posts lol pro

Thanks I will try that. Think I better go dl bug mode so I dont get you traded with our worst enemys by mistake with him. The idiot hates everyone.

If I surive long enouth to get nukes and air its like free win thanks to the stupied AI

What I was referring to was the case where the AI cheats to detect trades you make before meeting it. This can lead to dubious situations, like being that AI's worst enemy on contact, for the sole reason of trading with a worst enemy that there is 0 reason it should even know about.

The worst enemy map hack is a serious flaw in this game, especially because it makes a disadvantaged position (isolation from the majority of AIs) worse.

The only way to avoid this is to not trade, but if the AI makes a demand it counts as a trade, and then those that hate it will instantly hit you with -4 the second you see them, because the penalty is based on duration you've known the AI vs trade value. So...WHAT THE HELL? Does it or does it not know I exist? If it does, there shouldn't be a -4 for a 40 gold gift 10+ turns ago. If it doesn't (and it shouldn't, because we've not met yet!) there shouldn't EVER be a demerit. Basically fireaxis is having it both ways here, just to screw the human with artificial difficulty. This CAN result in instant war mode and HAS ruined games for me and others. More fake difficulty ---> If the AI makes a demand before you meet all of them...if you refuse it, you can be DoW'd. If you don't, you could instantly be worst enemy to 1-3+ AIs. How do you make your decision? TOTAL LUCK. Yeah...outcomes in games should be dictated by player actions for the most part. This is an example of non player-influenced outcome that can not only screw you, but can do it deep into the game. I play multiple times faster than most, and it STILL annoys ME...I can't imagine how some must feel when 10 hours into the game the AI cheats flagrantly to detect trades between phantom civs just to dogpile on the player before he can react (since he's backwards due to his position of not knowing the AI to begin with).

But no, let's not fix issues with gameplay...let's bug overflow and allow starts with only a plains cow and one FP instead .

 

[Orzio]

What I was referring to was the case where the AI cheats to detect trades you make before meeting it. This can lead to dubious situations, like being that AI's worst enemy on contact, for the sole reason of trading with a worst enemy that there is 0 reason it should even know about.

The worst enemy map hack is a serious flaw in this game, especially because it makes a disadvantaged position (isolation from the majority of AIs) worse.

The only way to avoid this is to not trade, but if the AI makes a demand it counts as a trade, and then those that hate it will instantly hit you with -4 the second you see them, because the penalty is based on duration you've known the AI vs trade value. So...WHAT THE HELL? Does it or does it not know I exist? If it does, there shouldn't be a -4 for a 40 gold gift 10+ turns ago. If it doesn't (and it shouldn't, because we've not met yet!) there shouldn't EVER be a demerit. Basically fireaxis is having it both ways here, just to screw the human with artificial difficulty. This CAN result in instant war mode and HAS ruined games for me and others. More fake difficulty ---> If the AI makes a demand before you meet all of them...if you refuse it, you can be DoW'd. If you don't, you could instantly be worst enemy to 1-3+ AIs. How do you make your decision? TOTAL LUCK. Yeah...outcomes in games should be dictated by player actions for the most part. This is an example of non player-influenced outcome that can not only screw you, but can do it deep into the game. I play multiple times faster than most, and it STILL annoys ME...I can't imagine how some must feel when 10 hours into the game the AI cheats flagrantly to detect trades between phantom civs just to dogpile on the player before he can react (since he's backwards due to his position of not knowing the AI to begin with).

But no, let's not fix issues with gameplay...let's bug overflow and allow starts with only a plains cow and one FP instead .

Yeh I know they will count it as trading with there worst enemy even if you havent meet them yet and its indeed damm annoying.

Stupied starts like 1 plain cow I just reroll same as if I start with 2 gems or 2 golds its just stupied.
However I didnt know demmands counted for trading with worst enemy as well. I almost allways accept demmands for some free +diplo without any side effects atleast I thouth so but thats good to know.

 

[dirtyparrot]

1. Gift a city in the early game. He will like you as much as any other warmonger. Make it the most utter trash city possible too . Or maybe make it border press somebody to trigger him tending towards war there.

I was meaning to ask, but how does the AI decide whether or not it's willing to accept a gifted city?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I was meaning to ask, but how does the AI decide whether or not it's willing to accept a gifted city?

Dunno, but I tend to plant crappy ones right on its borders and I've never seen it refuse. In fact I even get the +1 for liberation on top of the +4 fair trade.

I abused this to hell in the paradise immortal zara game, with the end result being a very dubious culture win when surrounded by leaders that implicate something other than "camp there the whole game with minimal military".

That map had a terrible start and rigged leaders deliberately though, so winning in that fashion was kind of like thumbing my nose at those supposedly more successful than average AIs .

 

[bestsss]

I was meaning to ask, but how does the AI decide whether or not it's willing to accept a gifted city?

I did answer the question somewhere but: 9 tiles from the nearest city or rightful owner capital distance, or some culture present (it depends here).

 

[dirtyparrot]

Ok thanks. So the AI doesn't factor in maintenance or quality of the land in it's decision.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Ok thanks. So the AI doesn't factor in maintenance or quality of the land in it's decision.

Not even remotely. I gifted it a 1-off coast city in the desert with 2 incense and absolutely nothing else, not even a single BROWN tile. It took it...