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what would make the AI massively better

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by yavoon, Jul 27, 2006.

  1. yavoon

    yavoon King

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    lotsa things could help(like maybe actually trying to win). but I think the AI could become vastly better if it just understood the concept of mission success. all this means is that unless extremely necessary u shouldn't engage in any military operations that dont have a 90-99% chance of succeeding.

    just simple stuff like dont attack a lone unit w/ ur lone unit even w/ odds like 70%. that means u win twice and lose once. instead get backup and u'll win 99+% of the time and get no worse than a 1:1 kill ratio.

    but where this would really impact the computers ability is in city attacks. if only the AI would just show some patience, mass troops under a forest or whatever and attack with enough numbers to give a 90%+ chance overall of taking the city THAT TURN. any human player would laugh at the idea of attacking a city u couldn't take in a single turn, but the computer does this constantly.

    it doesn't seem to me that it'd be that hard to program either.
     
  2. Pantastic

    Pantastic King

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    FYI I often attack cities over several turns in the early game, the key is that I need to be strong enough to have an 80+% chance to actually kill a defender. This comes up a lot if I get maces while they're still using axes and bows but I haven't had time to build huge armies of macemen.

    The AI needs a couple of things:

    Concentration of force. This is less about success percents, it just needs to want to cluster his units into real armies. Little sets of 1-2 guys and a cat are easy to destroy and have a hard time taking a city with 2-3 defenders, while serious armies require a lot of effort to take down and can walk right through weak cities.

    Concept of littls fights. This is pretty much what you're saying above; though I don't have a problem with lone unit vs lone unit attacks. What the AI strongly needs to avoid is hurling non collateral units at a big stack when the odds are that it won't kill anything; that's basically just handing you free promotions.

    More opportunistic DOWs. The AI is geneally too concerned with diplomacy standings, and doesn't press its advantage on weak neighbors. That's why it's so rare to see Caesar conquer someome with praetorians.

    Less obsession. Generally once an AI decides to attack a certain city, he keeps going after it for centuries or millennia, which makes it very easy to defend after one war. He should vary his target somewhat between wars instead of pretty much always hitting one city. Also he should do more of sailing ships around and sending small task forces away from the big fight. Not pathetic ones, but enough to force you to really defend even if you know his main target.

    Probably a few more, but this would be a huge start.
     
  3. yavoon

    yavoon King

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    its irrelevant to talk about situations where u are far more advanced than the AI. anyone can do well(even the AI) when they are highly favored in every battle.

    and I would never attack a city like u do w/ maces. 80% isnt a great advantage, u wont be able to kill two of the same unit if ur original chance was 80%. perhaps if u had a 95% advantage, but of course then almost nothing matters.
     
  4. SmartLittleman

    SmartLittleman Chieftain

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    I agree with the AI needing improvements in areas. I was playing a terra map and Montezuma wanted to go to war with me but he was about 4 civilizations away. I mean u had to walk through 4 of them, like 20 turns at least. Right after he declared war he had one unit go near my city i killed it and didnt bother to go after him and that was the only unit i faced. Finally he was able to talk about peace but he had to have 40 gold with it liked he was overpowering me so i agreed i had so much gold i didnt care.
     
  5. dh_epic

    dh_epic Cold War Veteran

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    I agree that the AI doesn't seem to use its stacks intelligently. Once it has the army put together, it just throws them at the enemy blindly. Not very smart at all.
     
  6. Pantastic

    Pantastic King

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    That's fine, then there are cities that I will take and move past that you won't, enabling me to finish an entire war much more quickly. FYI, maces versus archers is not a huge, rarely seen tech lead, it's something that comes up fairly often since feudalism (to upgrade archers) comes at around the same time. The AI very definately should be set up to exploit a situation like that, which it's not good at now, because it would enable it to wipe out a weaker AI.
     
  7. TomOC

    TomOC Monarch

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    I find that the AI worries about pillaging too much. I have been invaded with enough forces to take out 2 cities, and all the AI does is pillage my farms and such. I wait until it splits it's forces, then knock them out one at a time.
     
  8. kcbrett5

    kcbrett5 Warlord

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    My biggest complaint is that the AI blindly sends its troops across my borders even if I am the one who declared the war. So I declare war, but I keep my troops in my city on the first turn. AI moves its main mobile forces into my borders and I pick them off on the next turn. Then I march on his city which has less than half of its original defenses. The AI does this even if it is badly outnumbered, when what it should do is sit inside its border city walls and defend. Or wait for me to come across its land and pick my troops off much the same way. This also means that my stacks can move about the AI's lands at will with almost no resistance after his first wave because the only troops he has left are the city defenses.

    Oh yeah, my other complaint is that they dont use catapults enough to defend. Even if a city has 3-4 catapults in it, usually only 1 will attack my stack. This means at the end of my attack I am taking out several unused catapults. Why not launch them all at me to weaken my stack? They don't do any real good as defenders anyway.
     
  9. Veo

    Veo Chieftain

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    I think this tale is easiest told when observing an AI take over for a human in multiplayer. Somehow locked into the "early war means 1-5 defenders max" syndrome, they will march a weak army out of the gates of a besieged city, just to satisfy that pre-eminent condition. Interesting, and poor.

    Although that's on noble (multiplayer) I see it in SP on monarch as well.
     
  10. Veo

    Veo Chieftain

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    I have observed some string of AI that says "don't throw cats unless you're going to counter-attack in earnest." While I see merits of this (I usually adhere to it myself) there are times when delaying an offensive is better. I wonder if the AI can be made to take this into account, via odds computation, etc.

    Also, good heavens what will the AI do with Trebuchets? Forcing the AI to build specific city-taking tools may be disasterous to thier defense if it makes them build less cats...

    I think I'll start a thread for that.
     
  11. DrewBledsoe

    DrewBledsoe Veteran QB

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    Here's a point, remember your first ever game of CIV IV?, say on noble, when even if you were good at previous versions, you didn't know what to expect? You probably made a hell of a lot of mistakes, didn't really know how religion worked, didn't know if you were making enough troops, weren't sure if you were researching the right things?

    Thats what the AI is designed to counter.

    When you moved up a lvl, then another, then another, you didn't encounter a new set of AI alogorithms, it just got tougher because the AI gets more and more freebies, and doesn't have to work as hard to achieve things.

    What we're taking about reallly, is a different set of rules the AI follows for each set of difficulty, and don't get me wrong, that would be wonderful.
    But as things stand "one lvl of AI for all diificulty lvs",if the AI was really improved to play as well as a good human player, then even noble lvl would be a big challange.

    The learning curve would be "cliffshaped" and probably put a great many people off playing the game.

    So until we can get a different set of rules for the AI to follow for each difficulty lvl, we're stuck with putting up with "giving it a chance" by giving it lots of advantages, and it must remain the scarecrow looking for a brain for the immediate future.



    Phew, think I'll go for a walk now ;)
     
  12. Datian

    Datian Warlord

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    The funniest thing about the AI in warfare is that it has no qualms with preparing a 10+ units defense, with archers, pikemen, axemen, but doesn't expect to meet any resistance when it attacks. If you garrison 10+ units, how can you imagine for a second that a stack of 2 axemen plus one catapult will manage to conquer a city ? :crazyeye:
     
  13. DrewBledsoe

    DrewBledsoe Veteran QB

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    True, I don't think it does, most wars the AI starts seem to be for mostly nuisance value...declares war on you, pillages a fishing boar or two, loses a city, asks for peace, then 10 turns later wants open borders, forgive and forget it wants, but if you'd started the war.....well then :mischief:
     
  14. Dearmad

    Dearmad Dead weight

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    As far as the AI goes it has those tagged as "city attack" units, while catapults are both that and "collateral dammage" units. So you may see a difference.
     
  15. DJ_Izumi

    DJ_Izumi Chieftain

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    I noticed in Warlords, the AI launched a carrier with fighters and battleship escort to harras my units and pillage. I don't recall AI being smart enough to use carriers before, even in Civ4. Is this true, or did I just miss out on the AI using carriers before? o_O
     
  16. TomOC

    TomOC Monarch

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    Happened to me in Civ4. The AI destroyed my infrastructure and caused me to loose the space race. Have not gotten that far in Warlords yet.
     
  17. sirtommygunn

    sirtommygunn Emperor

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    i think the problem with the AI is that they ALWAYS go for space race ... domination in the early game though they worry about everything BUT their military ******** AIs totally negelecting ur military is a surefire way too lose and lose fast :help: :whipped:
     
  18. yavoon

    yavoon King

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    no u wont.
     
  19. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    AI improvements, even in baby steps, are always welcome. I do like the idea that, if someone else declares war on them, they won't immediately go on the offensive, but secure their cities from your attack. Considering the complexity of the game, I give Soren credit for what he's been able to do with the AI, but more improvements will make a better game, so its always welcome.
     
  20. Pantastic

    Pantastic King

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    The AI will never be remotely as good as a so-so human player, it's just way beyond anything that can be done. What they can do is make the AI good enough that fighting it is not just silly, and that you need to use armies effectively against them and worry about their counterattacks.
     

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