What would you do here?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by dr_s, Oct 27, 2011.

  1. dr_s

    dr_s Prince

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    It's Emperor, large map, Epic, 870 AD, I'm Toku, 7 cities, on a landmass with Joao (15 cities) and Justinian (8 cities). We're all good buddies. I'm about even in tech, I have CS and just got Machinery, so I can build Samurai. Don't have horses, or much in the way of commerce or happy resources. I do have three Great Scientists sitting around, so I could immediately bulb Paper + Education if I wanted. Only WW is the Great Library.

    I feel like I'm at a crossroads. If I want to use my UU, it seems like I should go to war now. I could switch to Vassalage, and build a Samurai+Cats army, to become Samurai+Trebs. But maybe I should research Engineering first? Or use my GSs to bulb up toward Lib and continue to play peacefully for the time being, take Nationalism with Liberalism and draft Samurai? Tech Guilds and lay down workshops and farms everywhere? Or ???

    What would your direction be at this point? Suggestions welcome. Save and screenshots attached.
     

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  2. Bigv32

    Bigv32 Prince

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    not sure but I think you are running a specialist economy. Tech rate is non-existent, but if you are playing on nomal it may be okay (not sure off the top of my head).

    I would say bulb bulb, golden age to help build your army and then go to war. If the enemy has castles then def go with trebs. I would still go for them, but not as necessary. At least cripple Joao because he has kicked my but a few times lol.
     
  3. Framesticker

    Framesticker Prince

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    Your tech rate is pretty bad, considering that the land doesn't look that awful. Your main concern should be building up a consistent beaker rate and production base before you even think about going to war - even you did manage to raise and army for medieval war with Justin or Joao, both consistent warmongers, you would have to divert a lot of your cities for wealth instead of units which inadvisable at war.

    Also, you should consider how bad medieval war is - the worst one to run in the game. AIs are capable of extremely obnoxious defense bonuses (Longbowmen, in a city, on a hill, with Walls and a Castle, and some siege...) with would tear a Samurai army apart. IMO, continue to tech-whore up through Rifling, Nationalism and Drama, set up Globe Theater in probably Kyoto and draft Riflemen for the continent.
     
  4. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    not sure the posters before analyzed your situation properly.

    you're sitting at 3 GS and to me it seems like you're here for bulbing Paper and Edu and it looks like it's good plan.

    I have one big objection against your civics, imo caste doesn't mix well with OR. You should be either in caste+pac or slavery+or.

    Some cities lack granary, which is horrible thing imo.

    I would build at least 1 more inland city which will work the marble.
    Could you provide initial screenshot as you saw the map?

    something between Kyoto and Satsuma doesn't click here. there is so much food i would have liked to see at least 1 more city in the area somehow
    Kyoto settled on grassland hill is not something I would prefer.

    No horses, but iron. I think you should try for Lib->chemistry or Lib->steel depending on the lib race.

    1st war cannons+muskets with draft (I think muskets will block drafting of samus).

    Satsuma will be probably good draft city.

    Now you got the GP's for winning lib race i would think about going slavery and finishing infrastructure (ch's, granaries, forges, barracks, theathres)

    Not sure with OU.... really not sure. Maybe i would go with it.
     
  5. Bigv32

    Bigv32 Prince

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    I just opened the file.

    Build your cities up with slavery and build a ton more workers. Then throw up workshops. I still say you need to war against joao very soon. However, I agree with the above post. You're in rough shape tech wise.

    Fill in your land with extra cities that will work. You need more cottages as well. I would not say this game is lost, but with your current sit rep, unless you can get to rifles/cannons first, it will be hard.

    I now think a war with samarie is beyond your reach right now. If you insist on a way, do a quick amphibious attack against the bazatines.
     
  6. mtr12

    mtr12 Prince

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    Only a Monarch/Normal player, so take this advice with a grain of salt, but Medieval warfare is either slow, costly, or both. Unfortunately, Joao with 15 cities could quickly become a runaway AI.

    You need to get to Rifling/Steel ASAP and shut him down, or you could have a monster on your hands.
     
  7. dr_s

    dr_s Prince

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    Thanks for all the thoughts. I'm not very keen on warring right now, but I was wondering if others saw it differently.

    vranasm, I've attached a screenshot of the start and the save itself. Obviously in retrospect, settling 2N or 3N would have been much better, and looking at the screenshot, I probably should have seen that at the start. Move the settler 2N and the warrior NE-NE to look around. With all the forest around the starting tile, I wouldn't have been missing anything.

    I take your point about CS and OR, but actually I think the bigger problem is Bureaucracy, given its expense and my low-commerce, low-hammer capital. Would you really go back to slavery at this point? At this stage of the game isn't it better (outside of emergencies, whipping units for war, or whipping unis for OU) to keep your cities larger and working improved tiles and specialists?

    I was thinking about lib->chem or steel, but I'm concerned about losing lib to the other continent, and it's not clear when I will find out what the overall tech situation is. I guess it's good that caravels haven't shown up yet, but ... I was thinking of lib->Nat for Taj as well as switching to Nationhood for more happiness and less maintenance, then self-researching up the cannon line. That would also open up the possibility of trading for Engineering, while trying to lib Chemistry probably means self-researching it.

    Bigv32, I think cottages are contraindicated here. I'm not Financial and I only count 9 grassland riverside tiles and one floodplain, and the riverside grasslands are all scattered. (And most of the semi-decent cottage locations are very low food.) As for workshops, would love to build more, but that requires Guilds, which is a diversion from either current war or the lib race.
     

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  8. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    thanks for the SS.

    looking at it I don't really think you did bad. It's just generally crowded with food. You should have maybe planned around it a bit the city placement.

    that 1NE of wheat corn calls for another city 3 tiles from capital.
    you could make 3N of capital city 2 to run some of the food and for the most northern pigs make another city around the coast.

    You had not enough overlap imo. Maximize the food you work even if it means placing 3 cities in circle around capital. each of the food source means running library with 2 scientists ;-).

    as for the caste x slavery. You have to realize that at highest levels you usually run slavery almost excusively and switch into caste for GPP pushes (ideally while in GA).

    You need a lot of infra in short amount of time. You need slavery.

    Not sure with the lib race. The unknown is strong argument.
    If you don't have Marble then taking Lib->nat is basically for denial purpose which is not strong argument since you won't head towards MT (ah right now remember you have Marble, so heading for Taj is maybe not bad plan, it's on wrong tech path though).
    For libbing chemistry you need Eng, Gunpowder and Education.
    Edu you will bulb (most expensive). Eng probably trade (not sure if AI's know it already) gunpowder you will tech after Edu and is not expensive. Then lib.

    The trick with whipping infra with slavery now is, that once you have it in place you will switch into building wealth moving slider up and make yet another recovery and should bring you some much needed science.

    No purple glasses here, it will be tough for you, but that is the direction I would take with your save.
    Having only 2 tech trade partners is always problematic, so heads up. I don't think you have no future, but should pay to some things more attention (city placement, city infrastructure - those granaries are really noob mistake - sorry to say).
     
  9. Bigv32

    Bigv32 Prince

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    well at this point cottages could be a problem. It was more of a knee jerk reaction being a cottage person myself. It was my first thought to your commerce problem if you wait to war.

    Taking out Jaoa should be your number one priority. Bulb your way as far as you can go and shoot for rifles/cannon. If you get cannons, you "should" be able to at least start the war with samarie if you want while you wait for rifles.

    The faster you act, the better you will be able to do in the long-run.

    Having looked at the worldbuilder, any more advise from me would be partially baised lol.
     
  10. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    Well first of all, you are *not* in a bad teching shape.
    Don't waste your time with cottages, well played in this part.

    But...stop building units. The AI *cannot* attack you at pleased.
    Build science and wealth instead, and you can easily get out of this so called tech hole.

    As @Vran said, your civics are unfortunate right now. You should probably in Paci, and work on a GM so you can only build science and bulb.
    I see no problems here overall if you do the above.
     
  11. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    @My
    I hope i never indicated that it's bad tech situation or shape. I considered it reasonable for this point of the game.

    could be probably a bit better with better placement or finished infra, but it's very reasonable situation.

    Forgot to say stop the units, that's "automatic" ;-)

    As for the civics. not sure i would go pac right now. The GM idea is surely interesting though and worth the thought.
    But there is a lot of infra lacking in some cities though. Surely fix this...either caste+pac or slavery+or depending what is viewed as bigger problem.

    The GM COULD help a lot... running slider 100%. but finishing infra and building wealth could be borderline quicker with slavery (in the sense that the GM needs some time to pop and travel distance etc.).
     
  12. dr_s

    dr_s Prince

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    Yeah, I only started building units recently because I was thinking of going to war, but then I re-thought and posted. I also don't think the tech situation is bad; it's just that I felt like I was at a decision point and I wasn't sure how I wanted to proceed. I am concerned about my long-term tech rate, absent expansion, and I wasn't sure if I should try to expand now or later. It seems like later is better.

    I originally switched to OR when I began the Great Library. I don't think I had Philo then, but maybe I did. I don't like switching out of CS now; my tech rate will really plummet, so I'm leaning Mylene's way. (I think most of the cities have enough hammers to build the necessary infrastructure in a timely manner.) I didn't think of farming a GM, that seems like a good idea.

    No one on my continent has Engineering (Justinian doesn't even have Machinery), so trading for it seems unlikely in the necessary time frame, unless Joao starts on it very soon. But getting Chemistry sooner would allow me to work workshops sooner, so that's a plus in that direction. Maybe I should risk losing lib to the other continent and try to lib Chemistry (I don't really think I would feel comfortable trying to lib steel, unless I can trade with Joao for Optics to go meet the other civs).
     
  13. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    actually working non-rep specialist here is hurting you more then helping.

    the yield of non-rep spec is 0f 3bpt (not considering GPP)

    the yield of plains hill mine is 0f 4h, if employed to run directly research equals 0f 4bpt, so basically better then non-rep spec itself.
    Running grass hill mine is 1f 3h aka 1f 3bpt or 0f 4.5 bpt (1/2 of employed scientist)

    you could run the hills on wealth to moving slider up converting your basic commerce into bpt and then it gets complicated.

    if you employ scientist you don't work hammers and won't finish your infra in good time, so you're basically doing things half-way. doesn't work.
     
  14. dr_s

    dr_s Prince

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    Yeah, I understand that; I'm not running specialists at the expense of hammers, I'm running them on excess food in cities that don't have any hammer tiles available or will generate GP (e.g. Kyoto). Once I get Chemistry and/or Guilds the situation will change because I'll be able to start working workshops.

    Edit: Quick update since I played some more turns yesterday. It's now 1120 AD, I'm one turn from Lib. I went the Pacifism route, and switched all specialists in Kyoto to merchants. Ofc first GP was a scientist due to GLib, but second was a merchant, who is now heading overseas. Built an inland city and infrastructure where needed.

    Tech situation worked out well. Was able to trade Paper + misc for Compass and Optics and build a couple caravels. Met all but one AI: Louis (13 cities), Pacal (16 cities) and Mansa (Pacal's vassal). I'm the only civ with Edu, so that's looking good. Also, Justinian has Engineering, and Joao is 3 turns from Gunpowder, so my current plan is to put 3 turns into Nat, trade Edu for Engineering and Gunpowder, take Chemistry with Lib, then tech Steel and Nationalism (or trade for Nat, if possible). I might be able to trade for Guilds too, which would be great. Then go to war against Joao with drafted muskets and cannons (probably with Satsuma as my GT city for drafting), with the goal to ultimately capture the continent.

    Save attached.
     

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