What's going on with Creation, Force and Dimensional mana?

[WarKirby]

I think Force I should be Magic Missile.

A level 1 direct damage spell. it would work exactly like fireball, but without the collateral or bombarding.

 

[Darkwind3.0]

I, a lowly lurker, shall throw in my hat for Creation. I think it would be sort of a 'builder sphere', with emphasis on, well, creating. Its passive bonus could be +5% commerce, maybe? More, less?

Creation I: I'm thinking it would be a small bonus, fitting for an Adept. Thus, I suggest something like a Creator's Hut building: it would add +5% production and +5% commerce, per Creation resource. Maybe +5% City Defense too. Perhaps it could be just +1 hammers/commerce and +5% City Defense, though, as opposed to percentages. One way would be excellent for settlements, the other for supercities.
Creation II: An interesting spell could transform one resource into something similar, within limits. Say, Gold could become Gems, but not Copper or Iron (though those two could become each other). Really special resources would be unable to be transmuted, of course, like Mithril and maybe Reagents. It could also go the opposite way as Creation I-offering percentage instead of absolute bonuses, or vice versa.
Creation III: This could be a lot of things. It could be a tuned-up version of a spell suggested in Creation II. A building that increases population by 1 per turn as long as the city is growing (which would solve the Fallow problem too, since their cities don't grow)? A building that provides a percentage bonus to food output (though this may not be possible, I don't think there are any of these), say 25%? Perhaps something that (gasp) isn't a building, like say a spell that instantly creates a worker (a special worker in some way, of course; maybe give it Strong)? An interesting spell could turn 100% of hammers in a city into food, or 100% of commerce into hammers, or vice versa. Could a spell transform culture into something else, even (or something else into culture)? It could be as simple as a building that creates +50% commerce/hammers and +10% food (boy I think of a lot of buildings(I also use parentheses a lot(it's annoying even me))).

I think I should have done Creation II before III, I practically ran out of ideas. Not to mention that this now looks more like a brainstorm than a list of concrete suggestions (though maybe that's for the better).

 

[Verily]

I really like that idea for Creation II. Here are some ideas for fairly logical resource "transformations". It would make it easier to get the proper resources you want without being overpowered; older ideas for Creation typically involved creating a resource, which would simply be too much. This way, you can get useful and diverse resources, but only if you have the corresponding resource in the transformation.

Gold <-> Copper (like the Dwarf event)
Incense <-> Reagents
Cows <-> Horses
Pigs <-> Sheep
Corn <-> Wheat
Silk <-> Cotton

There are probably other possibilities I'm not thinking of right now. Importantly, they would both need to require the same improvement.

 

[megamanx06]

creation III should be to create a raw mana node, with a requirement of a certain number of tiles from any other mana node (whatever is used for rites of ohgma). I think this fits very well.

On a completely unrelated note, i think spellstaffs should be equipment, but restricted to mages and archmages, to allow a single archmage to be able to equip all your spellcasters with them.

 

[cyther]

creation III should be to create a raw mana node, with a requirement of a certain number of tiles from any other mana node (whatever is used for rites of ohgma). I think this fits very well.

On a completely unrelated note, i think spellstaffs should be equipment, but restricted to mages and archmages, to allow a single archmage to be able to equip all your spellcasters with them.

The rites seem to be random because back in .34 I got a mana source placed next to a node three times.

 

[cabbagemeister]

Creation II: An interesting spell could transform one resource into something similar, within limits. Say, Gold could become Gems, but not Copper or Iron (though those two could become each other). Really special resources would be unable to be transmuted, of course, like Mithril and maybe Reagents. It could also go the opposite way as Creation I-offering percentage instead of absolute bonuses, or vice versa.

I also like this idea a LOT. My suggestions for the pairings:

Gold <=> Gems (mining, luxury)
Sugar <=> Banana (calendar, health)
Wheat <=> Corn <=> Rice (agriculture, health)
Cows <=> Pigs <=> Sheep (AH, health)
Ivory <=> Furs (hunting, luxury)
Cotton <=> Silk (calendar, luxury)
Incense <=> Dyes (calendar, luxury + building effects)
Fish <=> Clam <=> Crab (fishing, health [if the mage has water walking or is on a boat])

Deer???
Whales???

IMO, no switching should be allowed for strategic resources (as this would be too powerful): Horses, Copper, Iron, Mithril, Reagents

 

[Keeper_GFA]

But there's already an event for Gold <--> Copper.

 

[cabbagemeister]

But it's not player-initiated, so it's not something you could plan for and exploit.

Honestly I don't mind the idea of being able to get Copper with the spell, as Sorcery comes late enough that easy access to Copper is no longer a game-changer by then. But easy access to iron might be.

Also, I like the idea of only switching within resource classes. Makes it nice and tidy.

 

[Blackmantle]

You are aware that such a spell allready existed and was deliberately axed (can't remember the reasons exactly. But they have been rather concrete ones.)?

It was the earth 2 spell of divine casters back then. Transmuting copper to Gold and vice versa...
And the event was a replacement for that. Called: Transmutation.

So that one is obviously intentional. Don't expect it to come back. As much as i also would like it...

 

[Verily]

I also like this idea a LOT. My suggestions for the pairings:

Gold <=> Gems (mining, luxury)
Sugar <=> Banana (calendar, health)
Wheat <=> Corn <=> Rice (agriculture, health)
Cows <=> Pigs <=> Sheep (AH, health)
Ivory <=> Furs (hunting, luxury)
Cotton <=> Silk (calendar, luxury)
Incense <=> Dyes (calendar, luxury + building effects)
Fish <=> Clam <=> Crab (fishing, health [if the mage has water walking or is on a boat])

Deer???
Whales???

IMO, no switching should be allowed for strategic resources (as this would be too powerful): Horses, Copper, Iron, Mithril, Reagents

Incense is also a strategic resource: required for High Priests. It's really the same as Reagents [required for Archmages], since Reagents give a bonus Health with Herbalists while Incense gives bonus Happiness with temples (except Kilmorph).

Bear in mind that Tier II spells come relatively late in the game. The ability to get Horses or Copper or Reagents or Incense by sacrificing some other resource at that point is not game-breaking at all. I would be inclined to agree that Mithril transformations would be overpowered, but no others would be.

Since the Kuriotates would probably be the only civ starting with Creation mana, it would also help solve the resource-diversity problem for the Kuriotates such that they don't have to spam relatively useless Settlers to claim far-flung resources.

 

[OzzyKP]

Sounds doable.

 

[the_fish]

EDIT: Obsolete ideas. See post #113.

Spoiler :

My suggestions (with second 3rd tier spell, because I liked the idea of extending archmages options as a reward for specialising). I haven't played since "Fire", so some of my suggestions may have similar counterparts in newer spheres.


Dimensional

1) Escape

2) Teleport (caster moves to target (anywhere legal on map), but with a chance of failure for longer distances depending on level (odds displayed?). failure could either kill the unit or 'scatter' the destination tile)...or possibly a temp obsidian gate, removing real obsidian gates? feeds the next spell...

3) Gate (for the rest of the turn, this tile can be 'airlifted' to)

3b) Banish (changed - target unit in adjacent stack gets sent back to its controller's capital (someone else's idea, but I liked it better than mine))

Of these, I can see only "Gate" causing problems for the AI. It probably couldn't cope with organising massive sneak attacks, but it could use it to reinforce stacks on the move. The Sheaim have good synergy with their planar gates and the "Gate" spell, allowing new units to quickly reach the front line. The "banish" spell can be used as an extension of 'escape' or can flick problem units away from stacks, though it is almost an instakill.


Force

1) Force Bolt (small adjacent tile damage spell, or weak summon. not my idea, but I approve of it)

2) Bind (target adjacent unit can't move (promotion). x% chance of wearing off at the start of that unit's controller's turn, depending on unit/level)

3) Force Shield (temp building / 0 move summon. prevents collateral damage to units in tile, and adds resistance to cities defenses being bombarded (half?). could possibly reflect collateral damage back onto the attacking stack?)

3b) Force Blast (push adjacent unit(s) back unless fortified, do damage. could be a knockback summon (giant fist!!!). units can't be pushed into peaks, but if pushed into water will drown unless they have water walking/flying. heroes can't be knocked back)

"Force Bolt"s AI should be standard - the 'innovation' here is a lv1 damage spell, which was needed (in "Fire", at least). "Bind" has the advantage of optimally being cast before movement, allowing the caster to run away. "Force Shield" could either be a city defense spell, or a stack defense spell, depending on implementation - the collateral damage interaction is key. "Force Blast" should be balanced - you keep your better units away from water with a force archmage about. I added the hero clause because I felt instakilling a hero by drowning is a bit harsh.


Creation (IMO, needs to assist construction)

1) Craft (worker buff - workers with this promotion work x% faster (50%? 25%? balance issue))

2) Fabricate (temp building - either +x% hammers or +x hammers)

3) Genesis (hurry production on a unit (+x hammers?), for some other cost (archmage XP? city pop?))

3b) Create (sacrifice archmage to create a resource of your choice on this tile (that you could otherwise see, so you'd need the appropriate techs))

I envisage this sphere as being particularly useful for the Kuriotates, which is apt given it's their sphere. "Create" (needs better name) allows Kurios to fix their resource problem, and the other spells allow them to develop more quickly. The AI should easily be able to cope with all but the last of these, but assuming there exists a way of gauging how much a player needs a resource even this wouldn't be that bad.

Thoughts?

 

[Jules.lt]

I'm beginning to like the idea of those additional spheres...
(despite the fact that I think the existing spheres still require some work, especially lvl3 spells)

Dimension 1) Kael-approved
Dimension 2a) Teleport opens the door to too many complications
Dimension 2b) an early, temporary obsidian gate (but only in your own cities) sounds good. You need several for it to be any use, so it isn't overpowered.
Dimension 3a) risks being a duplicate of 2b) since you tend to gain cities in the places where you need troops...
Dimension 3b) we don't have a targetting system, so it would pobably be ennemy-only. Then it can teleport away a stack chosen like with the pillar of flames spell. Great

Force 1) Simple and great. Details to decide:
- is it handled like a fireball, like pillar of flames or some other way?
- How much damage? 20%? 30%? 2-3 mini-fireball?
Force 2) Bind looks too much like Blinding light and charm, to me...
Force 3a) I like it as a temp building. No collateral damage and half bombarding damage should be enough for humans to go for it, especially against humans
Force 3b) I was thinking about something similar for a second Air III spell. Throwing units into the water is probably overpowered, though. I considered mine a resistible spell, against which units in cities had +50% resistance but could be affected

Creation 1) Perfect! Make it 50%, so the advantage is noticeable (as compared to just building 50% more workers)
Creation 2) Good idea. I'd say +2, because +% would be either useless on small cities or overpowered on big ones
Creation 3a) I don't like it, sorry. I think that there are enough ways to hurry stuff as it is.
Creation 3b) Very good. Might use that Trust archmage for that, too

 

[Giga-Gigan]

Are we sure that Kael checks this thread even? Oh mighty Kael, show us a sign that we may better do thy bidding!

 

[cabbagemeister]

3) Force Shield (temp building / 0 move summon. prevents collateral damage to units in tile, and adds resistance to cities defenses being bombarded (half?). could possibly reflect collateral damage back onto the attacking stack?)

I like this idea (especially the "summon" concept, allowing you to cats it in the field), but I see it more as a mage-level spell. Honestly, preventing collateral damage is not that strong an ability, except under certain circumstances (hordes of catapults or fire mages) that you don't encounter very often. As an archmage spell, it would be too passive (even if you allow the "reflect" ability). It feels right as a mid-level mage spell.

 

[the_fish]

EDIT: Obsolete ideas. See post #113.

Spoiler :

I'm beginning to like the idea of those additional spheres...
(...snip...)

Thanks for the feedback! I wasn't aware that the targeting system had been removed, though I do remember being in favour of its removal, as it was too slow and clunky to use. You can still target tiles with spells, though, right? In that case, how about:

Dimensional
1) Escape
2) Jump/Teleport (paradrop, range = 5 or unit level)
3) Gate (this tile is a gate target for the turn, or perhaps passively the archmage is always a gate target)
3*) Banish (adjacent hostile units have an x% chance of being sent to nearest city of same civ.)

I think the "Gate" spell is stronger and more fun than creating a gate in cities, because you can channel units to stacks on the move, which is very useful when attacking an enemy civ. If made a passive ability, I've suggested "Banish" as an actual lvIII spell. Making teleports into paradrops uses existing code and AI, and gets around the issue of micro/vastly increasing movement speed - variable range would be nice as well.

Force
1) Magic Missile (probably a str 2 1 turn summon - maybe str = caster level? caster level-1?)
2) Shield (temp building, no collateral damage, half bombard damage, (+immune to first strikes?))
3) Shockwave (50% chance of pushing each adjacent unfortified enemy unit back one tile, except into impassable terrain. if not pushed back, damage dealt)

This makes it a more defensive sphere - mages can shield a city while flinging missiles at the defenders, or casting Shockwave to thin attacking forces. 100% pushback would make the city immune to any 1 move units, which seems a bit much - this way it's strong but not broken. Maybe 75%? Having a lv1 summon/attack spell other than Skeletons seems to fill a niche too, and making it scale doesn't obsolete either, without making it too strong (it also plays nicely with Grigori heroes).

If a lv1 direct attack spell isn't wanted, perhaps "Burden": all hostile units within 1 tile gain this promotion (cannot withdraw from combat, loses first strikes, x% chance to wear off per turn)?

Creation
1) Pitchcraft (+50% worker speed buff - might be too good)
2) Fabricate (temp building, +2 hammers (or any +x/+y/+z, really - essentially a free improvement))
3) Create (sacrifice archmage, destroy all improvements and create resource of your choice in tile - could limit to strategic resource to reduce list size)

I like how these spells make the unit stay in your cities (needing minimal AI) until they hit archmage level. It seems more scholarly, which fits with the XP gaining mechanic.

EDIT: reading the thread in detail again, I realise that a fair number of the above spells were mentioned before by others. This is just a compilation of those I feel would be good additions to the game, being simple enough to use by both humans and the AI and hopefully easy to code.

EDIT2: I'm happy with all the above apart from ForceIII - it seems too generic. I'll keep working on it.

 

[Cadaveres]

Although I like most of the ideas expressed here, I'd like the Force sphere to be a little bit more unique. For instance, creating 1 turn summons (Force Bolt) is more or less a nerfed fireball, and therefore not so unique. Also I would change the name to Magic Missile, a classic spell of D&D ;-)

What I'd do would be the following:

Force
Level 1 - Magic Missile: The caster gets "Magic Missile" promotion (+10% defensive strike per force mana, +1 first strike per force mana, as a "force affinity") until casting another spell or until next combat (to avoid the micromanagement of casting it every turn). It makes sense as if the caster had arrows. It has the innovation of using the defensive strike mechanic and it is not so powerful (as it affects only the caster) but gets more powerful as the player has more force mana.

Level 2 - Shield: All the units in the stack get the "Shielded" promotion, that lasts for a single turn. The "Shielded" promotion gives immunity to first strikes and immunity to defensive strikes. The funny outcome is that it neglects the effect of a caster with Magic Missiles (in D&D, the "shield" spell was neglecting magic missiles).

Level 3 - Gravity: Range n, where n is the number of force mana. All affected units get -1 movement point per force mana. This effect lasts 1 turn and cannot be resisted. This can stop huge stacks of doom with a single archmage. However, fast units can avoid it unless the caster has really beelined force mana.


Well, those are my ideas for force spells, I hope they help

 

[the_fish]

EDIT: Obsolete ideas. See post #113.

Spoiler :

I've had some more ideas for force mana, based on the assumption it's the sphere of balance as well as telekinesis and physics.

Physics/Telekinesis:
Pushing, slamming (force bolt), accelerating, slowing, lifting, shielding from objects, reflecting objects, throwing objects, stunning, burdening/"feathering".

Balance:
Balancing combat odds, removing unfair advantages, using the opponent's strengths against them.

Ideally, spells should come from the intersection of these two areas. This naturally makes the sphere feel defensive - if you're attacking you generally want to increase your superiority, while defending you're generally in a worse position than your attacker and want to balance this out. (I'm referring to war here instead of individual combats)

Force I - Burden
Nerf adjacent enemies, x% chance of wearing off per turn. Unit cannot withdraw if attacking. (x=25?)
(There doesn't seem to be an anti-horse spell at the moment. Withdrawing from combat is 'unfair' in that it stops units dying that would otherwise. This fits nicely in the overlap)

Force II - Shield
Temp building. Units in city are immune to collateral damage / first strikes. City takes x% less bombard. +y% city defense. (x=50, y=10?)
(This 'removes' the advantages of cd/fs from attackers, making them act more like regular units. The + to city defense is there mostly to make the spell useful even against regular enemies.)

Force III - Invulnerability
Buff stack, lasts until any unit in the same stack with this buff moves/attacks/casts, or this unit ends the turn in a city. Unit gets 100% resist physical damage.
(This one seems cool but I feel it doesn't mesh that well with the earlier spells - it's obviously OP if used in cities. It's good for holding chokepoints or saving a wounded stack deep in enemy territory. Of course, there are still numerous ways to deal with an 'invulnerable' stack)

or perhaps

Spoiler :

Force III - Reflect Damage
Buff stack, lasts 1 turn. Each time unit is hit in combat by physical damage, there is an x% chance of redirecting that damage to the opponent. (x=50?)
(Looking at how 'stoneskin' used to work, this should be possible to implement - of course, it gets a bit more complicated with damage types. This shouldn't kill stronger opponents unless they're on low health, but weaken them more after combat than they'd like. Maybe to stop warrior spam x could scale with level (10% per level, 60% cap))

The AI for the first two should be straightforward as they're very defensive and don't require the caster to be moved anywhere specific. For "Invulnerability", unless there are obvious chokepoints, it's merely an option to be cast whenever a stack needs to 'turtle' and dig in for a few turns. It still seems a bit inelegant - i'll work on the implementation.

I'm reasonably happy with my* ideas for Dimensional/Creation - they're about the same as before, with a few tweaks:

Spoiler :

Dimensional (+1 trade route per mana)
1) Escape (teleport caster to capital)
2) Jump (paradrop n tiles, where n is caster level)
3) Gate (passive: unit can be targeted for 'airlifts' like a city)
Banish (each adjacent hostile unit has x% chance of being sent to city of that civ nearest the caster. x=50?)

Creation (+20% cottage growth rate per mana)
1) Pitchcraft (perm worker buff, +50% work rate)
2) Fabricate (temp building, +2 hammers)
3) Protomancy (sacrifice caster - destroy all improvements on tile and create a resource of your choice)

Again, AI shouldn't be too bad, assuming the vanilla paradrop code is generalisable, and the computer can use 'airlifts' effectively.

*not all "mine", but the ones I agree with

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

One theme I don't see very often is magic resistance or anti-magic. Is it really that powerful? Valor only gives +10% resistance to the stack, and it's a level III law spell. I always figured that the Grigori needs some powers against the angels.

Force I: magic missile
20% physical damage to a random target in the enemy stack

Force II: shield of defience
+50% resistance against disciple spells. Lasts for 1 turn.

Force III: anti-magic field
Delay 5 turns. Can only be cast in cities. Creates the "Anti-magic field" building, disappears at the beginning of turn when city does not have a unit with force III promotion.

No units within 3 tiles of the city can cast spells or use active abilities.

 

[Luckmann]

Looking back on the thread, this is what I'd suggest. My apologize if anyone takes offense, because I'm going to steal ideas freely.

Force I - Magic Missile
The caster gets "Magic Missile" promotion (+10% defensive strike per force mana, +1 first strike per force mana, as a "force affinity") until next combat.

Force II - Burden
Enemy unit cannot withdraw. x% chance of wearing off per turn.

Force III - Force Shield
'Temp building'-spell. Units in city are immune to collateral damage & first strikes. City takes x% less bombard. +y% city defense. Ends if the caster unit leaves the city.

Dimensional I - Transferance
The caster can channel resources from a specific point, straight to the civilization capital. Ends if the caster unit leaves the resource.

Dimensional II - Teleport
The caster (only) teleports to any traversable, known tile. Must not be unexplored or in fog of war.

Dimensional III - Gate
Creates a "gate" at the point of the caster. Any unit in a city with a Obsidian Gate OR at the point of another Dimensional III caster w/ a "gate" can 'airlift' to a gate. Ends immediatly if the caster leaves the tile.

Creation I - Fabrication
'Temp building'-spell. Adds +2 to the city it's in per level of channelling. Ends if the caster leaves the city.

Creation II - Augmentation
Augments all workers in stack, giving them +20-25% work speed.

Creation III - Wonderous Creation
Permanently creates a single building in a city (from list). Gives every unit produced henceforth (in that city) a (single) item that in turn grants a predetermined effect (Haste, Enchanted Blade, Blur). Every building is exclusive to all other buildings created by Wonderous Creation. Consumes the caster(?).

I really don't have an idea what it'd take to implement these, but damn, those are my suggestions!