What's going on with Creation, Force and Dimensional mana?

[mahazel]

OK, my propositions for spells

FORCE +1 diplo per mana
1) Push - push enemy units back one tile
2) Law of Compact - like Destroy Undead, but aggainst Angels and Demons
3) Force Field - (when mage go to another plot spell is ended) +100% defence strength bonus, immune to first strike, +20% chance for defensive strike for every unit in mage`s contingent.

CREATION +3% stored food in cities
1) Fertility - add +1 to casters tile, canceled when caster leave the plot, can`t be cast on the plot, where someone already is using this spell.
2) (Don`t have a name ) - magic building, add +3, city can store + 20% food
3) Create Resource - create random resource in caster tile, remove all creation promotion from caster

DIMENSIONAL
1) Escape - teleport to capital
2) Summon Chaos Maruder (or another low-level demon)
3) Gate - like Obsidian Gate, but no limit for teleporting units in one turn.

 

[Luckmann]

Force Mana; +1 diplomacy per mana.
Dimensional Mana; +1 /city per mana.
Creation Mana; +1 /city per mana.

Force I - Magic Missile
The caster gets "Magic Missile" promotion (+10% strength, +10% defensive strike and +1 first strike per force mana, as a "force affinity") until next combat.

Force II - Burden
Enemy unit cannot withdraw. ~10% chance of wearing off per turn.

Force III - Force Shield
'Temp building'-spell. Units in city are immune to collateral damage & first strikes. City takes x% less bombard. +y% city defense. Ends if the caster unit leaves the city.

Dimensional I - Transferance
The caster can channel resources from a specific point, straight to the civilization capital. Ends if the caster unit leaves the resource.

Dimensional II - Teleport
The caster (only) teleports to any traversable, known tile. Must not be unexplored or in fog of war.

Dimensional III - Gate
Creates a "gate" at the point of the caster. Any unit in a city with a Obsidian Gate OR at the point of another Dimensional III caster w/ a "gate" can 'airlift' to a gate. Ends immediatly if the caster leaves the tile.

Creation I - Fabrication
'Temp building'-spell. Adds +3 to the city it's in per level of channelling (+9 with Channelling 3). Ends if the caster leaves the city.

Creation II - Augmentation
Augments all workers in stack, giving them +20-25% work speed.

Creation III - Wonderous Creation
Permanently creates a single building in a city (from list). Gives every unit produced henceforth (in that city) a (single) item that in turn grants a predetermined effect (Haste, Enchanted Blade, Blur). Every building is exclusive to all other buildings created by Wonderous Creation. Removes Wonderous Creation promotion from caster (can be re-picked).

 

[MagisterCultuum]

@ Mahazel:
All of those force spells are way too strong to be anything but level 3. Push could work for level 2, but only if it is made not to push units out of cities. I like the proposed passive effect, but is extremely strong too so it isn't really justified unless the spells of this sphere are relatively weak.

I don't think it is really possible for Fertility to keep track of when the caster moves away to cancel the spell or if the spell is already in effect to block it.

I personally still think that Chaos Marauders should be a Chaos Summon, and have a permanent version of Enraged/Burning Blood so they are stronger but impossible to control. I would recommend a random summon, but then it might be too close to Wonder. It is not possible to let an obsidian gate like building have no limit on how many units per turn can use it, but you could st the limit to 100. I still think that an ICBM-transport summon capable of carrying a small stack to any tile on the map would be the coolest Dimension III spell, and that is a simple xml-only change.


@ Luckman
Those Force spells are ok I guess, not great, but probably of the appropriate strength given the passive benefits of the mana. I'd prefer something a little closer to the balance theme for at least one of them. Oh, and the "+1 first strike per force mana" part of magic missile is impossible (without a lot of SDK work, and really not worth the hassle of trying to figure out how they could be be coded).

None of your Dimension spell proposals is possible (without a lot of SDK work, and really not worth the hassle of trying to figure out how they could be be coded).

I guess all your Creation proposals could work, although all would need python. They are ok, but I don't find them particularly impressive.

 

[Corlis]

It occurred to me recently that the mounted line didn't have some sort of spell boost specifically for them, like how melee has Enchanted Blade and ships have Fair Winds. Maybe one of these spheres could have such a spell for them? Personally I was thinking that the Creation I spell could give this promotion to mounted units:

Second Wind
The unit has a 50% chance after combat to regain a movement point and have their ability to attack refreshed.

Maybe this should only function once per turn, to prevent Magnadine annihilating entire stacks in one round. I was thinking Creation because the Kuriotates are the civ related to that sphere, and their specialty is the mounted line. It would also be quite powerful for the Hippus, but they'd have to tech up to Alteration/Divination/whatever to get it, so it's not so bad. Lorewise, I guess the magic is creating a new burst of energy in the unit.

 

[Meester]

Lets have a go (with added notes).

Force I - Telekinesis - Caster takes any weaponry from adjecent units and deposits them on his tile (Illians got Godslayer on an uber unit? Not anymore. Would also take from friendly units including your own. Since magical weapons are not that common an occurance, this will suit as a lvl 1. Imagine stealing Orthus's axe and using it on him ;P).

Force II - Blast - A wave of energy from the casters hands obliterates improvements one tile forward of the caster (for destroying improvements that ordinarily would be out of reach).

Force III - Shove - Pushes units around the caster one tile away (perhaps certain limitations would be placed on it, such as units not pushed onto a coastal tile, only one unit in a city pushed out at a time and it not working on summons).

Dimensional I - Summon Energy Being - Summons an Energy Being (this summon would be capable of flying, however it would be extremely weak, with a strength of 1 and a movement of 1. It would have an affinity with Dimensional which would increase its movement rate. Three Dimensional nodes would equal energy beings that can move 3).

Dimensional II - Transfer - Will move all units on the casters tile, apart from the caster to the capital (This would enable, a player to save units from outright slaughter if they find themselves surrounded by an enemy, and would also have the ability to save a capital city if it suddenly is under surprise attack. Would however leave a caster vulnerable).

Dimensional III - Teleportation - Caster can move through all terrain and units as far as he can travel (the caster would be able to move through all terrain without any costs to his movement points an d would be quite capable of moving on top of a mountain for instance. He could travel across a shoreline. He can travel through enemy units. He can cross civ borders. However there needs to be some limitation. If he finishes his turn on a water tile and hasn't for example got water walking or flying then he's dead. If he finishes his teleportation on an enemy unit, then he moves into combat with them. Likewise with an enemy city with units. If he finishes on another civs city without units, he can capture or raze it).

Creation I - Tower - Creates a Watchtower (this spell would create a unique improvement that would give a unit, the Sentry III promotion as long as it is staged within the Watchtower. If the unit moves from the Watchtower, it loses the Sentry III promotion. The watchtower would have to be destroyed before another improvement could be built in its place. How long the caster takes to create the watchtower would be open to debate).

Creation II - Forge Of War - Creates weaponry (This creates new equipment say swords that your troops or others can pick up, barring animals and things like that. The highest metal that your civ has will be reflected on the swords. So if you only have bronze it will be bronze swords up to mithril swords. Now the equipment will only add the promotion, bronze through to mithril weapons onto a unit that doesn't have it. Consider that one of your allies only has warriors. Imagine giving those warriors a significant boost with mithril weapons. Maybe some restrictions to the amount of weapons a caster can create may be in order. Also means an enemy can take them too)

Creation III - Reborn - Creates a new mana node in casters place. Sacrifices the caster to do so (Want a new mana node? Got to kill off one of your arch-mages first.)

 

[EverNoob]

Here my contribution Though I think the exact numbers would likely be tweaked for balance.

Creation I - Bottomless Cellar: Caster creates a Bottomless Cellar buiding in a city, which disappears if caster leaves the city. Stores 20% of after growth, +1 from wine.

Creation II - Double Trouble: Adds the Doppleganger promotion to all units in the caster's stack. Units deals and receives double damage (is that codable?), 50% chance of wearing off per turn.

Creation III - Wood Smithing: Creates a permanent Wooden Sword item, maximum 1 per caster.
Wooden Sword: Adds the Wooden Sword promotion, removes Bronze, Iron, Mithril weapon promotions from unit. +25% vs Bronze, Iron, Mithril weapons. +1: Affinity for Creation mana.

Force Mana: +1 Worker/Slave movement

Force I - Augment Worker: Adds the Augmented promotion to Worker/Slave. Builds improvements 15% faster.

Force II - Halo of Inertia: Inflicts the Halo of Inertia effect on enemies, +1 range, can be resisted.
Effect: -1 movement penalty, 100% chance of wearing off at end of turn.

Force III - Force Construction: Upgrades a Fort or Castle improvement to Citadel.

Dimensional I - Escape: same as the original.

Dimensional II - Blink: Adds the Blink promotion to all units in caster's stack. Effect: Unit ignores terrain movement penalties. 10% chance of wearing off per turn.

Dimensional III - Teleport: Caster can teleport (airlift) to any friendly city with an Obsidian Gate.

 

[civ_king]

Creation 3 is too exploitable Meester

 

[VSPavlov]

Creation lvl 1 summons a modmod or a patch. Creation lvl 2 summons a mod and can only be used by a bunch of guys, Kael included. And creation lvl 3 spawns a brand new shiny Civilization 5, but it's accessible only by Meyer itself.

And don't dare say, that there's no design need for it!

 

[Meester]

Creation 3 is too exploitable Meester

I'll admit I couldn't think of anything better for Creation 3 at the time. Maybe a limited mana node? Lasts for 25-100 turns?

 

[Nihilus]

the magic system is woefully short on targeted direct damage spells. lots of summons, lots of buffs, a few area effect damage spells, but only fireball as targeted dmg spell. so for Force II i would love to see a 2nd damage spell, the often cited magic missile, with a different feeling than fireball.
my suggestion is:

Force II - Magic Missile:
no collateral damage, no bombardment
weaker than fireball (3 strength, maybe even only 2)
slightly more range (5 movement instead of 4 when caster has the promotions)
starts with marksman promotion (for that unique "Magic Missile always hits it's target" feeling)

 

[Kyzarc Fotjage]

give it force affinity +1 maybe?
for dimensional 3 could summon random unit
or have dim 1 summon level one unit (weak)
dim 2 summon level 2 unit (average)
dim summon level 3 unit (strong)
but have them all be random units

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I still don't see how magic missile fits into the philosophy of the force/balance sphere. The most recent version suggested isn't really any different than most summons except for being fast and having marksman, neither of which fit there sphere at all.


I believe Kael has already definitively said that if the Dimensional sphere is reintroduce Escape will again be Dimensional I. Why do people keep making other suggestions for it?

Having all the dimensional spells be the same except for strength does not sound very fun. I'd rather them just not have spells but instead boost other spells (resist modifiers like metamagic plus summon perks) than do that. I also still find the idea of a ICBM-transport-summon too god to pass up for Dimensional 3.

 

[Kyzarc Fotjage]

have dim 2 be highly variable summon then
force 2 could redistribute all experience in square evenly among all units in square

 

[Kyzarc Fotjage]

there would a balance issue with heroes being xp farms though...

 

[R0GERSHRUBBER]

I've long wanted to see Magic Missile as a weak direct-damage spell at Force 1. It would add a new capability to the Adept without necessarily breaking it. Has Kael ever expressed any opposition to a direct-damage spell at this level?

Also, did Kael ever say which suggested spells he did like? I would like to see the last three spheres implemented, and it would be easier to put together a list he liked if we knew what he had in mind.

 

[Kyzarc Fotjage]

In http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=309036 MC says that above all else dimensional is about connections and cites Ceridwen as an example
All the death spells are about unnaturally connecting beings to Erebus. Lichdom binds the caster to Erebus and prevents him/her/it from dying. It forms an unhealthy connection between 2 planes. so many spells should be moved from other spheres to dimensional.
does this make any sense?

 

[GoodGame]

I like these 3 sets of ideas: Mahazel, Luckmann, and Evernoob's.

A modest merger (altered quoted ideas in bold) with my own crazy ideas:

Force Mana; +1 diplomacy per mana.
Dimensional Mana; +1 /city per mana.
Creation Mana; +1 /city per mana.

I like.

Force I - Magic Missile
The caster gets "Magic Missile" promotion (+10% strength, +10% defensive strike and +1 first strike per force mana, as a "force affinity") until next combat.

Force II - Force Shield
'Temp building'-spell. Units in city are immune to collateral damage & immune to one first strike (per attacker). City takes 1/2 less bombard damage. Ends if the caster unit leaves the city.

Force III-Levitating Citadel
Rather than 'force construction', this converts one citadel tile into a new unit, the Sky Citadel. Citadel tile is destroyed in the process. Sky Citadel has 1 move per turn, unlimited by terrain and can cross water. Sky Citadel's offensive strength is 1/2 the offensive strength of all missile and siege weapons loaded on it. Sky Citadel can carry 5 units.

Melee units attack Sky Citadel at -100%. Missile units attack citadel at -75%. Siege weapons attack citadel at -25%.Citadel can't be captured from a boarding party, unless attacked from another Sky Citadel or Kurioates' Sky Boat. Sky Citadel has a defensive strength of 10, but can't attack normally.

Sky Citadel can make one suicide bombardment (does 20% bombardment to a city, strength 10 attack, and causes 20% collateral damage to the stack)----destroys everything that was still in the Sky Citadel, however; Suicide attack is assumed to be against an adjacent city, otherwise assumed to be against the largest, adjacent stack of enemy troops.

Any units loaded in a Sky Citadel when it is destroyed/suicided are destroyed. Loaded/Unloaded units from a Sky Citadel can't move for 1 turn.


Force Tower
Yields a meteor-like ICBM. One use only. Can subsitute for another tower in the tower mastery victory condition, IF it's not fired. Appropriate tech?



Dimensional I - Escape

Dimensional II- Transferance
The caster can channel resources from a specific point, straight to the civilization capital. Ends if the caster unit leaves the resource.

Can only be done: if standing in self/unclaimed/barbarian cultural tiles, or if in a declared enemy's (i.e. at war) tile. (Should make some interesting game play)

Dimensional III - Gate
Creates a "gate" at the point of the caster. Any unit in a city with a Obsidian Gate OR at the point of another Dimensional III caster w/ a "gate" can 'airlift' to a gate. Ends immediatly if the caster leaves the tile.

Dimensional Tower
Creation ups armageddon clock by 3. Provides one chaos mana.
Gate that each use generates a random number of armageddon points (1-5 points, acts a little like the Ragnarok wonder), but gates in generally better monsters than Sheaim portals do at low armaggedon levels. Also gates some non-Sheaim monsters, like ogres, dragons, and the odd, carryable, special item. Payoff to armaggedon points is somewhat random.
At high armaggedon levels, the gate fails permamently. At that point the tower provides one entropy mana in addition to the chaos mana.

Creation I - Conjuration
'Temp building'-spell. Adds +3 to the city it's in per level of channelling (+9 with Channelling 3). Ends if the caster leaves the city.

Adds +5 to a tile if standing outside of a city. Of course only a city actually working that tile will actually benefit, and the spell must be re-cast is the caster moves.


Creation II - Wondrous Warehouse
Temporary building, cast in a city. Acts as a 'third' granary type (20% food stockpiles saved, to a max of 60% now), also randomally generates +1 health OR +1 happiness each turn. Effects lost if caster moves.

Creation III - Wonderous Creation
Temporarily creates a single building in a city, randomally from a list. Building only remains while caster stays in the city. Building gives every unit produced henceforth (in that city) a (single) item that in turn grants a predetermined effect (Haste, Enchanted Blade, Blur). Every building is exclusive to all other buildings created by Wonderous Creation. Removes Wonderous Creation promotion from caster (can be re-picked). Spell takes 2 turns to cast

Some ideas:
Magic Sandalshop: boots of speed- -1 terrain cost
Enchanted Swordsmith: Free enchantment I effect.
Necklace of Spell Extension I.

Tower of Creation
+25% Hammers in city, -20% food stores per pop growth point in city, +1 happiness in all cities.
Every 20 turns, randomally picks one mana type to provide for the next 20 turns: either Earth, Water, or Nature.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Many of those would be (nearly) impossible to code. (Pretty much anything could be made possible,but it would mean rewriting large amounts of the dll and probably messing up other stuff in the process. I don't think it is worth it.)

 

[GoodGame]

Many of those would be (nearly) impossible to code. (Pretty much anything could be made possible,but it would mean rewriting large amounts of the dll and probably messing up other stuff in the process. I don't think it is worth it.)

Most of FFH2 seems nearly impossible in the face of vanilla civ4. The idea was just to present an idea beyond 'filling out the spreadsheet'.

 

[Corlis]

Before I forget, maybe Dimensional could have some kind of spell that reduces spell resistance in others or something? Ceridwen specializes in magic of course, and in weakening barriers between things if I recall correctly. Maybe the Dimensional II spell could therefore debuff an enemy to have -20% to resist spells, and take +20% damage from elemental sources or something?