What's going on with Creation, Force and Dimensional mana?

[Calavente]

I had an idea of a spell... I don't have the mechanics... and I don't know if it is easily coded.

I think it may go well with the creation sphere, lvl 3

But I had the idea more for the effects than for the spell spheres.

the aim is to allow units to change its promo path.
It would be useful only for a human player.. the Ai won't be able able to use it AFAIK.
It can reward people into specialising

how I see it : transitory name "RELEARN"
-remove all promotions that can be earned through the promotion path..
-give as many free promotions.
-touches only living units

-versality very powerful for invading an ennemy, speciallising units against it's main forces : giving many cover agains ljosalfar, giving formation when going against hippus... and being able to defend efficiently when a big bad wolfs appears : "city-def", "defensiv", "drillIV+precision + keen sight", "woodsman", guerilla", "sentry I, II + perfect sight" if suddenly many invisible units are attacking you....etc

boni :
-can re-arrange a promotion path between war and peace : attacking or defending oriented units : thus a small empire can switch from turtling to counter-attacking.
-can re-arrange your mages specialisation.

mali :
-special path promotions would be lost (too bad )
-free promotions given by a building-wonder (as sentry) or some of the promo given by mutation could be re-learned into more "useful" promotions.
-too powerful/exploitable in the hands of an human player ?
-lot of micro (I am not adverse to micro, but I understand some player hate it a lot)

easily adverted mali :
-priests would lose -healII-
==> units' initial promotions would be lost and you won't be able to always get them back
-govannon-upgraded units would lose all their spell spheres.
-some traits-related promotions would be lost.

tweaks for less mali :
-spell spheres lvl I are not removed : protection of govanonn-trained units, less versatility for arcane units but allows you to lose/change some mana nodes and still maintain the spell sphere.
-compare, for each unit, the actual promotions versus the initial promotions, giving back each strating upgradable promotion (as trait-promotion : guardsman, commando, combat I...etc), and counting one less free promotion.

optionnal tweaks for a better balance :
-free promotion are usable only next turn : don't allow for last minute relearning after you made a mistake or to defend just after attacking. (any unit that went through "relearning" is a sitting duck for any passing ennemy unit for at least 1 turn).
-range 1-2 squares around the archmage : you won't be as easily able to re-learn promotions for some few units and protect them back with already promoted units, especially in ennemy lands.
-all units "relearning" lose their movement points : same reason.
-give the "held" promotion to all units : same reason
-instead of the previous three options : relearn affects only units in the caster's tile but held and movement loss affects all friendly living units in 1-2 tiles.
-doesn't work on mutated units : so as to not affect mutated units that got less than perfect promotions (very optionnal)
-give mutated to units that went through relearn : (very optionnal)
-AI is coded to try to attack a stack that went through relearn if it sees it.

how to make it work :
-give each "upgradable promotion" a sign on the code allowing for relearning (ie each promotions that are in some promotion paths, including spell spheres lvl II and lvl III.
-compare, for each units under the spell influence, it's standard promotions, including trait-induced promotions, versus its actual promotions.
-count the remaining promotions allowing "relearn"
-remove them
-give as many free promotions.

comments ?

Calavente

 

[Kyzarc Fotjage]

Still seems overpowered.

 

[Calavente]

yes, it is powerfull.
but overpowered ?
how so ?

I'm not so sure.. it is a lvl 3 spell... an archmage one.
the only overpowerd part is in creating flesh golems with heavily promoted immortals, but flesh golems are already overpowered

You have to keep in mind that your archmage also lose all spell promotions.
maybe if you want to reduce its power, you can make it have a cost :

-remove 15-20 xp on each unit that has relearned thus, gaining the next promotion will be harder. and you won't like your archmage to repeatidely lose xp faster than he gains it.
or -give 1-2 free promotion less than the original number. The cost of relearning is losing a promotion, without going back 1-2 level. it can mean 20-60xp for high level units. (but that way, your archmage would lose a looot of promotions if you use it a lot.

Those ideas would reduce the power of such a spell, but won't be very fun IMO.

 

[Kyzarc Fotjage]

Two words: Balseraph Puppets

 

[Calavente]

sorry ...
maybe you are right the las time I played the balseraphs, puppets weren't even in their creators' mind.
are puppets living units ? as puppets they shouldn't be able to relearn.
if there is another way to abuses this, enlight me please... as I don't know the mechanism for puppets...

maybe you mean creating many puppets that are magically specialized in differents areas from a limited number of arcan units ?
so what ? you can nowadays do the same with 4-5 mages if I understood the mechanism. or with 4 archmages and 4 lichs.

EDIT : last : a comment is worthwhile if it explains the "why" of the comment .. not just "owerpowered" or "balseraph puppets".
as for now, none of your comment are of any help, either to propose something new, or to balance the spell, or for anything else.

 

[Valkrionn]

Puppets will start with all the spells their summoning unit has. So any spell which would be removed, can be used infinitely by summoning the puppet, and then casting the spell with the puppet. It will lose the promotion, but it's a temporary summon anyway.

 

[Calavente]

so what ?
you can cast your buffer spells..etc and then cast relearn ...
I'm not sure I understand the difference.

you mean : cast puppets, then relearn, and next turn the puppets can cast the forgotten spell ?
ok ..
but next turn, the puppet disappear...
so balserph gain a few turns of respite... how does relearn make puppets more overpowered than now ?
or more exactly : how does the combination of relearn and puppets becomes more powerful than the sum of the two ?

 

[Valkrionn]

By simple virtue that they never HAVE to relearn. The actual mage will never lose the spell, only the puppet.

But I'm only explaining why I think he mentioned them. With Keelyn, you'd get a few extra turns for the puppets.... Potentially gives three or four different spell lines.

 

[Skitters]

Has a Force spell that gives a promotion to units in the stack that nullifies magical buffs been suggested?

I guess it could either act like Dance of Blades in that it'd be a one turn spell, or perhaps it could be like Stoneskin where it would last until the first attack.

So it would cancel out
Blur, Dance of Blades, Shadowwalk, Enchanted Blade, Flaming Arrows

...but perhaps as a bit of a poisoned chalice it'd also cancel out Rusted and Withered too?

 

[Jabie]

Given that we're in feature lock, I sincerely doubt any changes are going to happen, but it's still fun coming up with ideas.

What about "Evolution" - Grants the Evolved promotion and a number of temporary XP equal to the casters to all 1st level *living* units in the stack. If the target breaches a level they may level up and grab the relevant promotion(s).

At the end of the turn, all units lose the Evolved promotion and their XP is reset back to it's starting value - meaning that the next level barrier is a lot further away.

 

[Kyzarc Fotjage]

EDIT : last : a comment is worthwhile if it explains the "why" of the comment .. not just "owerpowered" or "balseraph puppets".
as for now, none of your comment are of any help, either to propose something new, or to balance the spell, or for anything else.

The puppets would eliminate the losing of the spells for an archmage, with the archmage casting puppet and the puppet moving onto the unit you wish to change, casting the spell. This would avoid the Archmage losing xp.

Evolution is a Creation or Force spell?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Thematically, evolution would only fit in the Nature sphere. That is, it would if the spell really had anything to do with evolution, which it doesn't seem to.

 

[Jabie]

Evolution is a Creation or Force spell?

Creation, the Song of Worlds at the Dawn of All, the dance of a thousand generations swirled into a single moment. I figure Creation for the productive side of Chaos, whereas traditional "Chaos" magic represents the destructive side. Essentially it's a mirror to the Mutate spell. As for imagining it: Combat promotions might reflect enhanced musclature, Sentry promotions improvement in eyesight, Drill faster reflexes, etc.

 

[Rutee]

Didn't he suggest "Relearn only affects living units"? I thought Puppets weren't living..

 

[Kyzarc Fotjage]

But puppets could cast Relearn, avoiding the damage to the Archmage

 

[Rutee]

I'm confused; The ARchmage could just repromote straight into his old promotions, right? Also, that was more to Valkrionn saying Keelyn could have 3 or 4 different spell lijnes out simultaneously

 

[Kyzarc Fotjage]

Calavente was saying that it would lower the total experience by a small amount each time it was used so the Archmage would lose a promotion or two.

 

[Calavente]

Yeah...
but retrospectivly you are right...
my spell is not so good,
puppets would be able to cast it without losing any xp.

Maybe if the price/cost (-xp) is not for the spellcaster but for all units relearning... then it would be more balanced ...

And the archmage losing its promotions for 1 turn means that for 1 turn he has no booster, no combat 5...Etc units are more vulnerable during the "relearning phase".

but for now it is shmuckitischmuck : as long as we don't propose 3 spells that please Kael for those mana, they won't be added

 

[Thonnas]

gotta throw my pennies in the bucket...

I recall a while (long time?) ago there were some spells that displaced units. Hoping the removal of that was due to balance and playability rather than implementation. It could be a good mechanic as long as the balance is right (ie low chance of happening, only a few units, etc). Given that, I see it as a key mechanic for dimension (or rather, when dimension magic fails).

Anyway, sorry for the mishmash here, but I can't imagine how you can only focus on a few things without balancing off some of the other stuff.

metamagic1 -> warding (+30 (?) magic resistance, 25% chance of wearing off)

reduce standard resistance (I'll have to look into how it's calculated, but I seem to get far more resists than not)
give all summons +1 turn duration so they can defend
(leave summoner trait at full 3)

dimansion1 - escape
dimension2 - banish (targets 1 non living unit, 40% chance to move it 2-3 tiles away, 40% chance to destroy, 20% chance to duplicate)
dimension3 - rift (50% chance to summon random nonliving unit, 30% chance to summon barb nonliving unit, 20% chance to relocate caster 2-3 spaces)

I wanted to say make nature3 call of the wild (permanently summons a random animal w/enraged promotion) and put vitalize in creation, but fertility works better and animals are kind of weak for 3. This might be a nice swap to the priest of leaves tiger summon, though.

creation1 - floating eye, or alchemy (random potion)
creation2 - wild growth (chance for mushrooms 40%, penguins 10%, animal den 50%)
creation3 - fertility (+1 to city population, 3 turn cast)

As death magic is the defiling of death, so too can force magic be the defiling of the natural order. (no?)
force1 - accelerate (haste for nonliving units)
force2 - jump (unit(s) gains flying for 1 turn)
force3 - crush (or shockwave)

give dwarven druids something like - avalanch (requires hill or peak, damage to units, chance to displace) [and maybe creation2... earth only kind of sucks]

make stoneskin weaker but cast on all units in the stack. let stoneskin ogres keep the old one (and let them cast it on themselves)

remove the +10 withdrawal from homeland and put it in loyalty. give homeland increased fortification bonus.

 

[eerr]

dimensional 3 with creation 3

creates a gate into a pocket dimension, a 5*5 area with one city of population 0.
randomly generates the endgate, and other terrain inside.
if the city is destroyed, all units inside vanish from the game.

It can even be used inside enemy territory(taking a huge risk!).