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What's on Ramkhamhaeng's (Siam) mind?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by brasaelal, Apr 24, 2011.

  1. brasaelal

    brasaelal Warlord

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    I'm playing with Napoleon (continents, large map, Prince) and Ramkhamhaeng just declared war on me, what I consider to be something incredible.

    I'm not near them. There's a "wall" of 3 CS's and Russia between us, so there's no dispute of land.

    My self-expansion consists of 5 cities, what I consider to be a modest expansion for a large map, isn't it? So he can't think of me as a expansionist. Only a border expansion speed, due to France UA (+ 2 culture :c5culture: per city until Steam Power), could be the reason of such drop in his opinion towards me.

    I only declared war to one Civ, Arabia, but that was the part of an agreement I had with Ramkhamhaeng, who really had goals with that war, beside the fact that Siam wasn't neighbor to Arabia, as France (Me) and a bunch of CS's were on the way.

    The result of that war was the take-over of Arabia's two main cities (what allowed me to expand my domain over what might be the longest river on the map, crossing 5 of my current 7 cities!) and destroyed another city that was kind of in the middle of my territory.

    I didn't even attacked a single unit from a CS that was allied with Arabia.

    At the point that there was nothing useful left of Arabia (two cities poor in food and no Iron or Horses) I made peace with Harun al-Rashid. Ramkhamhaeng made peace without taking a single unit to combat and now 1st in number of soldiers, since Ramkhamhaeng got prepared, but all this preparation is now set to destroy me.

    QUESTION: Why Ramkhamhaeng declared war on me if we had such good relations and were partners in all bad actions? I understand that all other known civs got mad with me, but why Ramkhamhaeng, my good old buddy? :dunno:
     
  2. kamex

    kamex Emperor

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    Diplomacy in CiV is completely broke and irrational (or expectational complex with each AI having a hidden agenda). Either way, the player has little explanation.

    In all honesty, there are no 'friends' in CiV. There can only be one winner per game, which by default puts everybody against each other, directly or indirectly.
     
  3. King Patrick

    King Patrick Warlord

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    If you hover your mouse over Ramkhamhaeng in the diplomacy drop-down, you'll get a list of negative modifiers to your relationship, like "thinks you are a warmonger" or "covets your lands." So you'll want to start there to see what he's upset about.

    I won't be surprised if he thinks you're a warmonger. While it varies from civ to civ - some are more sensitive to it than others - none of the civs are generally thrilled when you capture or raze cities, even if it's in a war in which you are allies (or in "self-defense", the other big complaint folks have about being called a warmonger).

    Also, some civs (like some humans, both historical and Civ players) are deceptive -- they'll pretend to be your friend right up to the moment they invade.
     
  4. JoeBas

    JoeBas Warlord

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    Did you build a wonder he was building? They don't like that.

    Did you buy a City State he was allies with? They don't like that.

    Are you winning? They don't like that.

    And I find all of that personally reasonable. As a human, do you,

    Say "Well done, old chap" when Siam finishes a wonder you had 1 turn left to complete? Or do you go get that wonder?

    Say "Oh well, that's okay, you first, Alex" when Alexander CS whores your long-time CS allies with his bottomless pile of gold and special ability?

    Say "No no, Genghis, please run away with this game" when there's a runaway AI civ in first?

    If the answer to the above questions is "Yes", then you might have a problem with the diplomacy in V.
     
  5. sav

    sav Prince

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    Sometimes I think I'm playing a different game to some people. I think the diplomacy in Civ5 is far above Civ4. It makes sense, and you really feel like some civs are friends, others enemies, etc.
     
  6. blac

    blac Warlord

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    I find whenever I'm winning the AI comes after me. Maybe because he thinks you are trying to the same way as him.
     
  7. King Patrick

    King Patrick Warlord

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    There are a few quirks that need working out, and I agree with the folks who say you need more options to repair relationships than trying to find & return captured workers, but I never have a problem figuring out why an AI civ turns on me, and most of the time, I'm able to see it coming. Hardly "irrational" or "random."
     
  8. aatami

    aatami Kuruth Urfarah, kuruth!

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    Some people just haven't had the time to learn to play, a thing which the CiV diplomacy needs.
     
  9. Kaosprophet

    Kaosprophet Warlord

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    I'll agree with the first part - that it makes sense (at least, if you stop to look at it.) Not so much on the latter part, though; I feel more like I'm playing Clique Politics with the characters of Heathers.
     
  10. brasaelal

    brasaelal Warlord

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    I agree with you. I don't recall a single time I managed to repair my relationship with a civ back to FRIENDLY status after going to war or having serious issues regarding land or CS politics.

    In real life, Europe would be like an ALWAYS-WAR scenario if those limitations in diplomacy were real.
     
  11. kamex

    kamex Emperor

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    I think the conflict is between 'game world' diplomacy and 'historical / realistic diplomacy'

    Take for example: "They think you are trying to win the game the same way as them". When you think of Civ V as a 'game' this does indeed makes sense, as if you were playing against another human. But for those who like CiV to be a realisitic, almost historical experiance, such a modifier is an outrage.
     
  12. JoeBas

    JoeBas Warlord

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    There are indeed a few prozac moment rough edges that need smoothing.

    For example, in my current game...

    Rome and I had been friends since the beginning of time (well, he started neutral but went to friends pretty fast), with 2 civs inbetween us.

    One day, out of the cold blue, he denounced me. I hadn't built any recent wonders, settled any recent cities anywhere, hadn't passed him on the scoreboard, any of the usual schtick that ticks them off.

    Three turns later, he calls me up... asking for a DoF. Uh, no.

    But all in all, it's a system that makes sense, from a game perspective.
     
  13. JoeBas

    JoeBas Warlord

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    If you want ciVs to stop complaining that you're trying to win the game the same way as them, and want a pure historical sim, turn off all the victory conditions. They shouldn't complain about you trying to win the same way as them, because there's no way to win. :king:

    If you want to have your cake and eat it too (I.E. "win" without your opponents caring about "winning"), well then this system just isn't going to be for you. :scan:
     
  14. brasaelal

    brasaelal Warlord

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    But this will make the AI less competitive, won't it? I mean, are they gonna have any goal in the game?

    If not, I shall turn off all victory conditions. Except Time, maybe.
     
  15. Dermo

    Dermo Warlord

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    You took a number of cities from Arabia, since he was the one who engineered the conflict he may now covet those lands

    This thread over at 2K looks at the XML files in the game and shows what affects leaders attitudes and diplomacy

    http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread...Interpretation
     
  16. Thry

    Thry Warlord

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    Did you defend yourself from an agressor? They don't like that.

    Did you exhale air? They don't like that.

    Were you weak, and 5 AIs declared war on you ? They don't like that.

    Did you make a city ANYWHERE? They don't like that.

    Did you build any wonder? They don't like that.

    Do you have a beating heart? They don't like that.

    Did you summon the Norse god of thunder, Thor? THEY DON'T BLOODY WELL LIKE THAT.

    The AI's dislike everything. That's the problem.

    Moderator Action: You could make your point without trolling, so next time, please do.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  17. eris

    eris King

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    When I was a lot younger, I was part of a group that met regularly for playing Risk. Everybody was playintg to win and all alliances were temporary at best. And yet no one complained; it was part of the game. I got good enough I won more often than not. So the others would gang up on me if they saw me gaining any kind of advantage. It increased the challenge and made victories all the more satisfying. As Risk players we expected everyone to play their very best. As an advanced Risk player I expected them to pull any trick they could think of. That wasn't a problem.

    As Civ players, some people don't expect the AI players to play to win, they expect the AI players to play in a way that makes it interesting/entertaining for the human to win, nothing more. That's the problem.

    At least, it would be a problem if there were only one way or reason to play Civ.
     
  18. JoeBas

    JoeBas Warlord

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    Untrue. Defend yourself by killing units and pillaging improvements to your heart's content. No rep hit whatsoever.

    Taking cities in self-defense? Try that in a court of law. "Your honor, he tried to hit me. So what if I had already broken his arms and removed the threat, he had to be shot too.". Good luck with that.

    Untrue and trolling.

    Yes, if you're weak, you're going to get pwn3d. Been that way since HACK.

    Untrue and trolling.

    Untrue and trolling.

    Untrue and trolling.

    Don't know about this one, as I haven't found the Easter Egg to do that.

    But I'd imagine they wouldn't like that, and shouldn't.

    They don't dislike everything:

    They like it when you give them OB/Trade it with them.
    They like it when you give them help during a DoF.
    They like it when you abide by your agreements to stop buying land/settling near others.
    They like it when you keep your word.
    They like it when you denounce people they've denounced.

    Moderator Action: Warned - please refrain from calling other users "trolls"
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  19. brasaelal

    brasaelal Warlord

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    Yeah, but how those actions affect a civ's opinion towards you? Apparently the actions that they don't approve affects much more than always being a good friend.
     
  20. King Patrick

    King Patrick Warlord

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    I think most of the people who've said they understand and enjoy the Civ V diplomacy system agree there aren't enough effective ways to positively impact (or repair) your relationships with the AIs, and would like to see some more options there.

    As opposed to the haters, who are apparently unable to concede, well, anything at all, to the point of even making stuff up to hate about the game.
     

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