What's on Ramkhamhaeng's (Siam) mind?

You took a number of cities from Arabia, since he was the one who engineered the conflict he may now covet those lands

This thread over at 2K looks at the XML files in the game and shows what affects leaders attitudes and diplomacy

http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread...Interpretation


The link is broken, but I think I know what article this is. It's excelent, but it doesn't show the "weight" of each type of action. Maybe the problem in this issue is the lack of balance of the "weight" of actions that the AI approves or disapproves.
 
I agree with you. I don't recall a single time I managed to repair my relationship with a civ back to FRIENDLY status after going to war or having serious issues regarding land or CS politics.

In real life, Europe would be like an ALWAYS-WAR scenario if those limitations in diplomacy were real.

That's because there aren't very many positive modifiers, while there are tons of negative ones. For example, the OP's first mistake was razing a city. Was it the right move if it was in an undesirable location? Probably, but razing a city plus taking over 2 other major ones is quite likely (on Prince) to push you to the #1 civ. If you're #1 in a few categories and relatively weak in military then that just makes other civs even more aggressive towards you. I believe the diplo modifier is "you're trying to win the same way they are". They can covet your lands even if Russia is in between you. They can covet your wonders. You can be competing for the favor of the same CS's. Maybe you were denounced by a friend in the past, etc etc etc.

In the game I finished up yesterday (large, continents, 10 civs/20 city states), I spawned on an isolated continent with only 2 other civs and 4 CS's. I had 20 (TWENTY!!) iron readily available, with 14 of in my capital and city #2. Naturally I killed the other 2 civs. However, while I was mopping them up Liz made contact with me. She hated me for the rest of the game because I was a "warmongering menace". The other civs? 4 friendly and 2 neutral for most of the game, eventually going to 6 friendly and 1 neutral. I sacrificed one of the friendly's to get the 2 neutrals on my side by denouncing the ottomans (who had been denounced by everybody else, including Liz). By this point I had already been denounced by liz as a warmongering menace so I was unable to fix that relationship, but the neutrals quickly came around to friendly terms with me b/c we had denounced the same leader. I was even able to steal 2-3 CS's from Arabia, Siam, and Inca each, though those stolen CS's were spread out over time. I don't know what the threshold for CS competition is, but I suspect that it is higher when you're friendly than when you're neutral or, especially, hostile.

So, to get a more positive diplo rating with a specific civ, you can make a DOF with them, you can make a DOF with a leader that they already share a DOF with, you can denounce somebody they've already denounced, and you can liberate their captured workers. I haven't liberated an actual civ lately, but I assume that resurrecting someone from the dead gives you a pretty hefty diplo bonus with them as well.

They don't dislike everything:

They like it when you give them OB/Trade it with them.
They like it when you give them help during a DoF.
They like it when you abide by your agreements to stop buying land/settling near others.
They like it when you keep your word.
They like it when you denounce people they've denounced.

I've never seen an actual positive modifier for OB/Trade, giving help during a DOF, abidinb by agreements, and keeping your word. Are you saying that those things offer an actual positive modifier? I think that you have it wrong, my experience is that OB/trade means nothing, NOT helping them after you made a DOF is a negative, and lying to them is a negative. So everything you listed other than denouncing the same civ is an opportunity to case the other civ to hate you if you don't do "correctly".


I think most of the people who've said they understand and enjoy the Civ V diplomacy system agree there aren't enough effective ways to positively impact (or repair) your relationships with the AIs, and would like to see some more options there.

As opposed to the haters, who are apparently unable to concede, well, anything at all, to the point of even making stuff up to hate about the game.

I think that this is key. The things that JoeBas listed SHOULD, imho, be positive modifiers, but instead they are just opportunities for you to piss off the AI. Don't get me wrong, I often deliberately do things to piss off the AI so that he gets the warmonger hit for declaring on me, but it's definitely a minefield if you want to play the diplomatic game correctly right now. Hopefully, the new patch will introduce more positive modifiers like "our open borders bring us closer together", which would encourage even high-level players to look at using mutual OB instead of just selling them every single time. Or maybe the old standby "our years of trading bring us closer together". And what about outright bribing them, leading to "your gold gifts bring our peoples closer together" or "you gave us tribute". I realize that many of these are outright stolen from civ4, but a couple of them could bring more diplomatic wrangling back into vogue.
 
I've never seen an actual positive modifier for OB/Trade, giving help during a DOF, abidinb by agreements, and keeping your word. Are you saying that those things offer an actual positive modifier? I think that you have it wrong, my experience is that OB/trade means nothing, NOT helping them after you made a DOF is a negative, and lying to them is a negative. So everything you listed other than denouncing the same civ is an opportunity to case the other civ to hate you if you don't do "correctly".

The way this game is set up, MOST (not all, due to flavor/etc, but most) of the civs you encounter in a game will be by default friendly, if you don't lift a finger - as long as you don't do anything negative to send the relationship away from "Friendly".

So by saying those things, what I'm saying is "Quit racking up negatives - every negative counts - and maybe you won't be the hated spawn of Satan halfway through the game and reaching for those positives to repair, which aren't there right now.

Should there be more positive modifiers? Probably, if it can be balanced.

But I can't understand folks who say, the way the game is now, that they "only" took over 2 cities, burned a third, blew off a couple other civs, and "NEVER" sign a DoF or denounce anyone, and can't understand why now everyone hates them and scream that they can't fix it. :mischief:
 
Oh yeah, taking over 2 major cities and burning down another is all it takes for some civs to brand you as a warmonger, and after that it can go downhill quickly. All I was saying was that OB/trading/keeping your word, etc, has no potential positive modifier at all, but it definitely can have negative consequences if you lie, warmonger, refuse to give help after making a DOF, etc. One of my other favorites is the dreaded "you are expanding too quickly". I don't know if having ally/friend status will delay onset of this one, but it's almost as bad as the warmonger status to your overall reputation.
 
But I can't understand folks who say, the way the game is now, that they "only" took over 2 cities, burned a third, blew off a couple other civs, and "NEVER" sign a DoF or denounce anyone, and can't understand why now everyone hates them and scream that they can't fix it. :mischief:

It's not about taking "only" two cities, is about having a whole background of good terms with a specific civ and watch this civ turning its back on you in a few turns.

All other civ's were already GUARDED or NEUTRAL, so I expected some denunciations.

The way diplomacy mechanics work on Civ5 we must micro-manage diplomacy. Though I really love to use diplomacy as a "weapon" in favor of my goal, it wastes too much energy to build a solid reputation world-wide, what shouldn't be so difficult, if you intend to play peacefully.

I don't like to complain, because I just love Civ5. I'm just trying to understand what Civ players think of what I consider to be inconsistencies. Seems that many agree.
 
So, to get a more positive diplo rating with a specific civ, you can make a DOF with them, you can make a DOF with a leader that they already share a DOF with, you can denounce somebody they've already denounced, and you can liberate their captured workers. I haven't liberated an actual civ lately, but I assume that resurrecting someone from the dead gives you a pretty hefty diplo bonus with them as well.

I'm trying this right now (after ending a war with no negotiation, just a Peace Treaty, expelling them out of my territory, which they never really got much further inland and the only units that got inside their territory were a couple of frigates to blockade their two coastal cities and prevent a naval uprising.

Now let me ask you all: Did anyone ever got succeded on making DOF to GUARDED civs? I'm having serious trouble. I'm exchanging resources and gold with 5 of the 8 known civs (1 left to know and 1 was destroyed by the 3rd power of the game, Persia (again! :mad: I'm 1st and Siam 2nd), am allied with only 2 CS's that are near my borders and for a long time now. Still, my best buddies are GUARDED and every now and then some civ dennounces me.




I've never seen an actual positive modifier for OB/Trade, giving help during a DOF, abidinb by agreements, and keeping your word. Are you saying that those things offer an actual positive modifier? I think that you have it wrong, my experience is that OB/trade means nothing, NOT helping them after you made a DOF is a negative, and lying to them is a negative. So everything you listed other than denouncing the same civ is an opportunity to case the other civ to hate you if you don't do "correctly".

If that's true, we're screwed!


I think that this is key. The things that JoeBas listed SHOULD, imho, be positive modifiers, but instead they are just opportunities for you to piss off the AI. Don't get me wrong, I often deliberately do things to piss off the AI so that he gets the warmonger hit for declaring on me, but it's definitely a minefield if you want to play the diplomatic game correctly right now. Hopefully, the new patch will introduce more positive modifiers like "our open borders bring us closer together", which would encourage even high-level players to look at using mutual OB instead of just selling them every single time. Or maybe the old standby "our years of trading bring us closer together". And what about outright bribing them, leading to "your gold gifts bring our peoples closer together" or "you gave us tribute". I realize that many of these are outright stolen from civ4, but a couple of them could bring more diplomatic wrangling back into vogue.

That's what is missing: positive points to opinion due to long and lasting relationships and good terms.
 
That's what is missing: positive points to opinion due to long and lasting relationships and good terms.

This seems to be the biggest complaint - that there's no "White out" for prior bad deeds.

It's just a fact of life in the game right now. If you don't wanna do the time, don't do the crime!...
 
When I was a lot younger, I was part of a group that met regularly for playing Risk. Everybody was playintg to win and all alliances were temporary at best. And yet no one complained; it was part of the game. I got good enough I won more often than not. So the others would gang up on me if they saw me gaining any kind of advantage. It increased the challenge and made victories all the more satisfying. As Risk players we expected everyone to play their very best. As an advanced Risk player I expected them to pull any trick they could think of. That wasn't a problem.

As Civ players, some people don't expect the AI players to play to win, they expect the AI players to play in a way that makes it interesting/entertaining for the human to win, nothing more. That's the problem.

At least, it would be a problem if there were only one way or reason to play Civ.

I play civ because I want to build an empire and create history (I actually don't like to play to win that much on civ). If I want to play a pure strategy game I play Risk or multi player CiV (if working...). I would like an AI that plays to have a thriving empire and to act like actual world leaders.

BTW this game is just too easy, I've never felt challenged in any game I've played (and I don't want to increase the difficulty, I want to play against the computer at fair odds). If another civ is becoming at least nearly as strong as me I just wipe them out with a third of their force. Even if the whole world declares war on me I beat them one by one.
 
BTW this game is just too easy, I've never felt challenged in any game I've played (and I don't want to increase the difficulty, I want to play against the computer at fair odds). If another civ is becoming at least nearly as strong as me I just wipe them out with a third of their force. Even if the whole world declares war on me I beat them one by one.

Every game is "too easy" on the easiest difficulty settings. And giving the AI bonuses at higher difficulties is standard for all computer games, because no amount of coding can make the AI as clever, intuitive, and resourceful as a human player, so the designers have to increase the odds against you some other way.
 
Every game is "too easy" on the easiest difficulty settings. And giving the AI bonuses at higher difficulties is standard for all computer games, because no amount of coding can make the AI as clever, intuitive, and resourceful as a human player, so the designers have to increase the odds against you some other way.

And again, if your complaint is that the AI porridge is "too cold", try playing a multiplayer game.

I'm sure you'll find your first few multiplayer games "too hot"... :king:
 
Every game is "too easy" on the easiest difficulty settings. And giving the AI bonuses at higher difficulties is standard for all computer games, because no amount of coding can make the AI as clever, intuitive, and resourceful as a human player, so the designers have to increase the odds against you some other way.

They could at least make the AI not using catapults as scouts (both in and out of war)
 
the answer to all this problem is simple.
just go in a state of mind that.......
EVERY leader is HOSTILE to you. regardless of what the "diplomacy marker-mickjiggle" says.
that makes dealing with them a lot easier lol.
 
They could at least make the AI not using catapults as scouts (both in and out of war)

I've never seen a catapult used as a scout, although in wars I have seen some catapults moved into combat with fewer defenders than I'd ideally use. Also, I'm not certain what catapults have to do with your earlier objection on difficulty levels.
 
They could at least make the AI not using catapults as scouts (both in and out of war)

I saw more out-of-position siege before the last couple of patches, when AI would us ranged units to provide flanking bonuses. Not so much now, but it still happens.
 
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